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Parks and Recreation - 02/08/1979 1979 FEBRUARY 5 .98 MINUTES CITY OF EDEN PRAIRIE I AGENDA EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MONDAY, FEBURAY 5, 1979 7:30 P.M., CITY HALL COMMISSION MEMBERS: Richard Anderson, Chairperson; David Anderson, Steve Fifield, William Garnes, Robert Johnson, Robert Kruell, George Tangen COMMISSION STAFF: Robert Lambert, Director of Community Services Approx. Time to Begin Item 7:30 I. ROLL CALL II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA 7:35 III. MINUTES OF JANUARY 15, 1979 IV. PETITIONS, REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATIONS 7:40 A. Letter from Lake Eden Homeowners V. RECOMMENDATIONS AND REPORTS CA. Reports of Commissioners None B. Reports of Staff 7:45 1. Development Proposals - Bluffs West 2nd Addition 8:00 2. Park Dedication Ordinance - Draft #3 8:30 3. Snowmobile Enforcement Procedures 8:40 4. Letter to Residents - Bryant Lake Area 8:45 S. Eden Prairie In Action 9:00 6. Neighborhood Park - Top View Area 9:10 7. Trail Grade Separated Crossings VI. OLD BUSINESS 9:20 A. Shoreland Management Ordinance 9:45 B. Guide Plan ( 9:50 C. Items for Discussion Commission/Council Special Meeting 2/8/79 y VII. NEW BUSINESS (, 10:00 A. Eden Prairie Stables 10:1S B. February 19 Meeting (Holiday) 10:20 VIII. ADJOURNMENT 1 r _ APPROVED MINUTES t EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1979 7:30 P.M. , CITY HALL COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Richard Fifield, William Chairperson;lliamG David Anderson, arens, Robet Steve Johnson, I Robert Kruell , George Tangen COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: NONE COMMISSION STAFF PRESENT: Robert Lambert, Director of Community Services OTHERS PRESENT: Richard Putnam, Betty McNulty, Dick Sager, Don Hess, Dick Dahl , E.P. News; Al Dybier, E.P. Sun I. ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order at 7:30 p.m. by chairperson Richard Anderson. t II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Additions to the agenda: V.A.1. Tree Dump - Kruell V.A.2. Hot Water Discharge - Kruell VII.C. Duck Lake Elevation - Kruell VII.D. Sidewalk Maintenence - Kruell COTION: Garens moved, and Johnson seconded, to approve the agenda with the additions; rotion passed unanimously. III. MINUTES OF JANUARY 15, 1979 Changes to be made: Page 4,para.5; should read: "Kruell suggested that the trail mileage might be increased throughout the community by using the right of way after the Public Works Department leveled the banks with the wing-plow." MOTION: Dave Anderson recommended approval of the revised minutes; seconded by Fifield, the motion carried unanimously. IV. PETITIONS, REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATIONS A. Letter from Lake Eden Homeowners Lambert provided the commissioners with a copy of the letter from the Lake Eden Homeowners being presented to the Council on February 6, 1979. In the letter the homeowners outline their problem of inadequate, unsuitable park- land. They suggest that the council take action to acquire more land, and to improve or develop what has already been acquired. This was as information item, and no action was required. V. RECOMMENDATIONS AND REPORTS A. Reports of Commissioners 1. Tree Dump - - Kruell reported to the corenission that there is a lot south of Town Line Road and'west of Duck Lake Road that appears to be developing into a tree Minutes.-Parks, Recreation &. approved Feb. 5, 1979 Natural Resources Commission _2_ dump. He questioned whether the area had been designated as such, and what could be done. Lambert told the commission he would ask the City Forester to look into the matter. 2. Hot Water Discharge Kruell noted that there is as area of Purgatory Creek where it crosses State Highway #5 where there is open, running water, despite the sub-zero temperatures. He felt it may indicate a hot water discharge going into the creek. R. Anderson suggested that a possible cause could be the springs and strong currents, which would not freeze. He pointed out that the active beaver dams in the area may help keep the water open. Garens pointed out that the City is constructing a well east of that area--upereek from the open water--which could affect the water in the creek. Lambert said that the staff would investigate. B. Reports of Staff 1. Development Proposals-- Bluffs West 2nd Addition Lambert gave a brief outline of what has happened to date with this proposal , and then suggested that the commission may wish to discuss it further when Dick Putnam, of Hustad Development Corporation, arrived to offer answers to any questions they might. have. The commission agreed to discuss it later, 2. Park Dedication Ordinance--Draft #3 Lambert briefly outlined the changes that had been made in the latest draft of the Park Dedication Ordinance. The new draft eliminates the "up front" fee, and replaces the controvercial formula for land dedication with a ten percent residential land option, subject to approval by the city. He then suggested that the Commission may want to eliminate the suggested recreation facility charge; but that he f. . felt it wise to include the requirement to grade and seed dedicated parcels. He introduced Betty McNulty, who was ; speak on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce n She l poi pointed out that9 the to Chamber wanted to commend the staff on the fine job they were doing and the good response they felt they were receiving to their questions and problems. The problem that remains in their opinion, is how to provide a good park system while maintaining reasonable costs for housing. She ( and Mr. Sager agreed that the way the ordinance was rewritten seems fair and equitable, but they felt that they would like to offer more ideas and definative examples. Minutes-Parks, Recreation & approved Feb. 5, 1979 Natural Resources Commission -3- R. Anderson asked Lambert which ten percent of the property could be ded icated in lieu of a cash park fee; and what control does the city have over the quality of the property dedicated. Lambert explained that the ordinance specifies ten percent of the total land being developed, and the city has the option of determining the location of the land, if they do choose to accept it. Kruell questioned the ten percent land dedication alternative. He felt that it ignores the possibility of future high density building. For example, on a twenty acre development with a 400 unit high-rise, the recreational needs could not be satisfied by a two acre dedication. } Lambert pointed out that in such a case, the city would insist on the fee rather than land, and buy the required land. He went on to suggest that the city should be buying options on land now, for future park sites; the Commission should strongly recommend to the Council the development of a park fund for such acquisition. It would be more consistant- and equitable since everyone pays an equal amount through their taxes. R. Anderson noted that the acquisition of one parcel automatical e ly increases the value of the adjacent properties. He questioned whether the city would be gambling by acquiring options at this point in time. Lambert replied that this gamble is not as great as gambling on whether we could afford to buy the land when it is actually needed. 1 Garens asked if it wouldn't make sense to base the fees on a percentage of the value of the property, using the sale price as the value. Lambert explained that the administration of fees would be difficult since each fee would be different. Don Hess suggested that the commission consider building in an "inflation factor." Using the flat fee, but increasing it annualy by the same percentage as the "cost of construction index" would eliminate "catch-up" fees, and prevent the necessity for updating the ordinance every year. Kruell felt that Section 3 should be left out, since he feels recreation is becoming a bargaining clause for developers. Families in low and moderate income housing developments have the same needs for recreation as the rest of the community. Other requirements, such as garages, could be eliminated. Tangen asked Lambert who would own the mini-parks obtained through the ordinance. He was told that if there is a homeowners association, they will ; otherwise the city will . The ordinance does reflect higher standards as now required by ordinance, and there is also the possiblity that the Council may reconsider it's position on mini-parks. MOTION: Kruell moved to continue the discussion on this item at the meeting on March 5, 1979. Tangen seconded. DISCUSSION: Kruell stated that he saw too many loose ends. He suggested that the developers and Chamber members should make a proposal to the Minutes-Parks, Recreation & approved Feb. 5, 1979 Natural Resources Commission -4- Commission for consideration, keeping in mind the problems faced by the commission in the development of a good park system. C Hess stated that he liked the idea of being able to work over the problem and offer new ideas. He suggested that some of the commissioners might like to join them for a work session. McNulty agreed, stating that the concern is to meet the city's objectives. It is important to have park sites and money to develop them. VOTE: The motion passed unanimously. Chairperson Anderson directed discussion back to item V.B.1. (V.B.1.) Bluffs West 2nd Addition Dick Putnam outlined the history of the development and explained Hustad's proposal for a density transfer in exchange for land dedication and cash park fees for all the units. Tangen asked if the 31 acres to be dedicated was the same property the city had beer, negotiating on. He was told that it was. MOTION: Tangen moved to recommend to the council approval of Bluffs West 2nd Addition as proposed. Dave Anderson seconded the motion, and it passed unanimously. 3. Snowmobile Enforcement Procedures This was an informational item to update the commission on the status of the snow patrol established by the Snowdrifters. If further enforcement procedures are desired, additional money will have to be spent. Fifield asked if anything had been done on registration or free permits. It has not been pursued. R. Anderson pointed out the need for better marking of trails. He met snowmobilers who were using the cross-country trails at Bryant Lake because they thought the signs were for snowmobiles. Dave Anderson noted that since more signs have been posted in the Anderson Lakes area, fewer tracks have been seen. Lambert suggested that a separate snowmobile trail at Bryant Lake, well marked, could prevent conflicts between snowmobiles and cross-country skiers. Kruell felt that the snowmobile club should expand their trails into areas of great use. He requested that it be an agenda item in Julv,1979. Tangen noted that,thanks to the local press, the problem received the publicity they needed to make citizens aware of the trails, etc. He agreed that discussion should begin earlier next year. R. Anderson also suggested that signs be posted at Bryant Lake Park directing parking for skiers to the stable area. Many are now parking Minutes-Parks, Recreation & approved Feb. 5, 1979 Natural Resources Commission -5- along the road and getting stuck in the snow. No action required. 4. Letter to Residents--Bryant Lake Area Lambert discussed the reaction of some citizens to the letter sent to all Bryant Lake residents concerning snowmobiling in the park. Some citizens feel that banning snowmobile use in the park limits the recreational possibilities of the park. No action required. 5. Eden Prairie in Action The staff recommended six areas for which information and/or graphics could be provided. They are 1) Round Lake Park, 2) Bryant Lake Park, 3) Preserve Neighborhood Park, 4) Edenvale Neighborhood Park, 5) Maps of existing and proposed parks and trails, 6) Senior Citizen Center. The commissioners agreed to take the following times in the booth: Saturday, February 24: 12 Noon---1:30 p.m.--Dave Anderson 1:30 p.m.-3:00 p.m.--Dave Anderson 3:00 p.m.-5:00 p.m.--Kruell/ Lambert Sunday, February 25: 9:00 a.m.-11:00 a.m.-R. Anderson 11:00 a.m.-1:00 p.m.-G. Tangen 1:00 p.m.--3:00 p.m.-Garens �- Fifield left the meeting at 9:50 p.m. 6. Top View Area Neighborhood Park Lambert updated the commission as to the status of the search for a suitable park site to serve the Top View Area. Kruell questioned whether the Top View area was being considered out of order. He asked what their priority number was, prior to the petition from the homeowners in the area. R. Anderson noted that it has always been listed as needing a neighbor- hood park. He suggested researching the files from the last bond issue proposal . No action required. 7. Trail Grade Separated Crossings Lambert reported to the commission that after the discussion on the Chatham Wood development, he decided to research grade separated crossings for trails. He found that the public transportation department is currently doing a study on the subject. He recommended setting limits and numbers for when grade separated crossings will be required; but to wait for the public transportation department to set their criteria. Dave Anderson was asked for his observations of the use given the underpass crossings in the Preserve Area. He noted that the use depends on the location and where it leads. The underpass by the pool and tennis Minutes-Parks, Recreation & approved Feb. 5 1979 Natural Resources Commission -6- complex is highly used, for instance. Lambert agreed, stating that warrants should take into consideration not only traffic, but also the use and location (near recreational facilities, etc.) It was also suggested that some research be done in the Jonathan area, since they have used trail grade separated crossings extensively in their development. No action required. Robert Johnson left the meeting at 10:15 p.m. VI . OLD BUSINESS r A. Shoreland Management Ordinance The staff brought back the changes that had been requested by the Commission in the Shoreland Management Ordinance. R. Anderson raised the question as to whether we would have jurisdiction over man-made lakes that may be created in the future. He felt that a man-made lake should also be covered by the Shoreland Management Ordinance. Tangen asked if ponds are classified as lakes. Lambert replied that they are if they are five acres or larger. Kruell suggested that the ordinance be changed to read "All existing lakes or those in the future." He also felt that expensive development along shoreland should be encouraged, if the city maintains an easement at the edge of the shoreland. He did not feel a P.U.D. would be necessary to achieve variances. Garens left the meeting at 10:30 p.m. R. Anderson turned the chair over to Tangen. MOTION: R. Anderson moved to recommend to the Council approval of a P.U.D. wi—'ttF n the Shoreland Management area, and to include the F.U.D. language in the Shoreland Management Ordinance. The motion was seconded by Dave Anderson and it passed unanimously. Chair returned to Anderson. B. Guide Plan t The Commission decided to discuss the 1979 Guide Plan at the March 6, 1979 meeting. No action was taken. C. Items for Discussion--Commission/Council Meeting 2/8/79 Lambert asked the commissioners to look at the proposed agenda for the joint meeting with the Council , and think about specific topics for discussion. R. Anderson suggested discussing funding for neighborhood parks, and also get ideas from the Council on the Riley Lake Park question--neighborhood v.s. regional park. Tangen wanted to be sure that mini-parks are discussed--public or private I T - Minutes--Parks, Recreation & approved Feb. 5, 1979 Natural Resources Commission -7- ownership being one question. Lambert suggested that the council should be updated on the status of the regional parks--Anderson Lakes Park and Bryant Lake Park. In the Bryant Lake Park discussion some items that should be included are the trails under construction, the planning process, the road and access problem , and the status of the Eden Prairie Stables. No action required. VII. NEW BUSINESS A. Eden Prairie Stables Lambert reported to the commissioners that Glen and Janet Lorenz are terminating their lease at the Eden Prairie Stables, effective February 29, 1979. MOTION: Tangen moved to recommend tabling the discussion of the problem until the February 8, 1979 meeting with the Council ; to be included in the Bryant Lake discussion. Dave Anderson seconded, and the motion carried unanimously. B. February 19, 1979, Meeting (Holiday) Since the regularly scheduled meeting in February falls on a holiday, it was decided by the Commission to cancel the meeting. The next regular meeting will occur on March 6, 1979. C. Duck Lake Elevation Kruell reported that he had read that the high water mark of Duck Lake is going to be dropped "just slightly". He requested that the problem be researched and brought to the Commission for study. It is to be discussed at the March 6, meeting. D. Sidewalk Maintenence Kruell suggested that the Commission should begin to consider an ordinance or policy that would require shoveling of public sidewalks, but not bikeways or hikeways. R. Anderson noted that in the past the city has maintained the sidewalk in the King's Forest Area with the wing-plow. He pointed out that because of the unusually deep snow this year, it has not been effective. Tangen stated that an ordinance would be premature at this point. It should wait until the city's trail system is further developed. No action was taken. VIII. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 11:30 p.m. Respectfully Submitted: Georgia Jessen, Recording Secretary APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE CITY COUNCIL & PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1979 7:30 P.M. , CITY HALL COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Penzel , Dean Edstrom, Dave Osterholt, Sidney Pauly, Paul Redpath COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Richard Anderson, David Anderson, Robert Kruell , George Tangen COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Steve Fifield, Robert Johnson OTHERS PRESENT: Dick Dahl , Eden Prairie News Al Dybiec, Eden Prairie Sun ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order at 7:35 p.m. by Mayor Penzel . The agenda was approved as published. I. COMMUNICATION BETWEEN PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION AND THE CITY COUNCIL OF EDEN PRAIRIE Richard Anderson spoke to the problems of communications between the Commission and Council since the liaison member was abolished approximately two years ago. A discussion was held on the pros and cons of a liaison member. Tangen felt there is an approximate six week time gap from the time of a Council meeting before the Commission receives the minutes on issues that have gone to the Council . Mayor Penzel suggested a brief report by staff at the Commission meeting on the items the Council considered. It was also suggested that the Commission be given the rationale for a Council decision if they go against Commission recommendations. Osterholt suggested that the Commission meet on a periodic basis to discuss policy development. Mayor Penzel recommended that March and September be put on the calander at the beginning of the year for joint meetings with the Commission and Council. Mayor Penzel asked if it would be helpful to put a notice of Commission agenda items in with the Public Hearing Notice mailed out by the Planning Commission. The Commission would decide what the impact of this would be and what items should be included. Mayor Penzel emphasized to notify all residents thru the news media when making decisions on regional or community parks. Residents within a 1,000 foot radius should also be notified by mail . Richard Anderson and Pauly stated examples of when this has occurred - Byrant Lake Park Master Plan and Prugatory Creek Area. II. FUNDING FOR PARKS AND RECREATION IN THE CITY OF EDEN PRIARIE Tangen stated that the Commission has difficulty knowing what funds are available for park acquisition, bikeways/hikeways, etc. Where do the funds come from for matching grant funds? The question was raised as to the feasibility of possible funding from the General Revenue Fund to replace the Park Bond Fund. Osterholt suggested there be an accounting of funds such as Bond Fund, Cash Park Fees, etc., so they know what is available. He also suggested the possibility of approaching the legislature to implement funds for local parks similar to State aid for roads. i -2- approved Minutes Eden Prairie City Council 2/8/79 Parks, Recreation & Natural Resources Commission Mayor Penzel suggested to re-examine the question of a Bond Issue and todays needs should be determined. Osterholt suggested a survey at Eden Prairie In Action to determine what the people want. The Cash Park Fee was discussed with reference to Draft 1-4 of the Park Dedication Ordinance. Lambert reported on his meetings with the Chamber of Commerce Develop- ment Task Force Committee for input on the new ordinance. Redpath spoke to the problem of new homes funding the park system - bond issue would allow old and new residents to decide what they want for parks. Tangen stated that if we had a General Revenue Fund, the money would come from the entire community rather than just new homeowners. Dick Anderson asked if we can get a General Revenue Fund for seed money. Penzel replied he would refer this to Roger Ulstad for consideration in the 1980 budget. Osterholt requested a list of where General Revenue Funds would be used. Mayor Penzel suggested that Frane and Lambert research the projection of an improvement bond. Osterholt questioned what is the attitude of the public on a bond issue. Kruell replied that it is favorable providing the bond issue is planned and presented properly. Redpath emphasized it should be one issue only. Osterholt stated ' that timing was an important factor for a bond issue and suggested fall or summer. Mayor Penzel favored summer. Tangen felt it might be too difficult to push a bond issue in such a short time. Edstrom stated he sees an interest from the citizens in park acquisition and facilities. Edstrom asked is a bond issue needed to be broken down in details or can it be pretty general . Kruell felt it should be an honest shot, exactly what they are getting. Edstrom felt it would be helpful to put together a five-year comprehensive park plan. Tangen felt this would be difficult to do until after the Guide Plan Update is completed. III. GOALS FOR DEVELOPMENT 1. Mini-Park/Totlots The general feeling of the group was to refrain from calling them totlots - refer to as open space or mini-parks. Tangen felt that multiple dwelling areas need structures, but single family areas could be open space with the City owning and maintaining (mowing, etc. ) 1 acre/50 homes - open space for single family (duplexes) 1 acre/ 50 units - multiple (4 plexes and up) Richard Anderson emphasized that aesthetic value should be considered for mini park locations. -3- approved Minutes Eden Prairie City Council 2/8/79 Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission C 2. Neighborhood Parks Mayor Penzel stated that neighborhood parks should be within a 2 mile radius of a development and 15-20 acres in size. 3. Regional Parks Richard Anderson reported difficulties in the Bryant Lake Park access road. The Commission needs to know what is going to happen to Rowland Road. Mayor Penzel reported that the commitment from the County is for Crosstown 62 to be extended in 1980-82 with no connection to Rowland Road. Osterholt asked what the objections are to the access? Lambert replied the residents want Rowland Road deadended into Bryant Lake Park. Mayor Penzel suggested the Commission set a deadline for a decision or the Council will make the decision. Lambert reported that the Commission has already decided to send it to the Council for a decision. Lambert reported that Metram Properties is considering developing land in the Bryant Lake area. Lake Riley Area. Lambert spoke to Lake Riley Park as a regional or community park. He suggested that possibly a community park would serve the interest of Eden Prairie residents better with a corridor to Mitchell Lake Park. �- Community Park would be 35-40 acres plus about 55 acres of corridor, as compared to 200-250 for a regional park. Dick Anderson stated that DNR will not maintain Riley Lake, because we charge for boat launching. Lambert reported that he is recommending to .stop charging for boat launching, but continue the parking fee. The question was raised as to how to control the number of boats if a fee was not charged. Reference was made to Grays Bay on Lake Minnetonka where after the parking lot is full there is no more boat launching. Shorewood has stickers for residents only. Dick Anderson asked if we are under the philosophy that Riley Lake should be a community rather than a regional park. Mayor Penzel stated that the Council did not give complete endorsement to the regional park concept. He asked that the Commission make a recommendation to the Council . Anderson Lakes Park. Lambert reported that he is making a report to the Council on the Anderson Lakes Park Joint Master Plan. He suggested that the Council appoint a committee to go over the Joint Master Plan and nail down what we want and bring it to the Council for approval. Dick Anderson asked what the Council 's feelings are on giving up control of Anderson Lakes Park. Mayor Penzel replied the Council feels this was not the original plan and Eden Prairie should not give up control in its invest- ment. Members of the Council felt that it was important to pursue the original intent of developing a nature center in Anderson Lakes Park Reserve. -4- approved Minutes Eden Prairie City Council 2/8/79 Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission 4. Bike/Hike Trails Lambert reported on the status of County Road 4 Bikeway Trail . There are problems with the railroad and State requirements for crossing the rail- road at a Wangle. He also reported that there is no funding north of Highway 5 because of the wide shoulder which is designated a bike trail by the State DOT. Valley View Road bikeway has been written off for now until the bridge K problem is solved. Tangen asked about 51 , 6, or 8' concrete trails. Lambert reported 5' 1 concrete for collector streets, 6' asphalt for recreational trails, and 8' asphalt for spine system trails. Meeting was adjourned at 10:20 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, Marlys Dahl Recording Secretary a '1 l