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1995
OCTOBER 2
MINUTES
CITY OF EDE1�T PRAIDIE
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AGENDA
EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, RECREATION & NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
MONDAY, OCTOBER 2, 1995 7:00 P. M. CITY CENTER
8080 MITCHELL ROAD
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
COMMISSION MEMBERS: Claire Hilgeman, Chair; Bruce Bowman, Richard Brown,
Don Jacobson, Vicki Koenig, David Kracum, Joanne
Kube-Harderwijk
STUDENT MEMBER: Mark Bremer
COMMISSION STAFF: Robert A. Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and
Facilities; Stuart A. Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural
Resources; Laurie Helling, Manager of Recreation
Services
I. ROLL CALL I
II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - SEPTEMBER 18, 1995
fir•. IV. PETITIONS REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATIONS
A. None
V. DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS
A. Dell Road and Highway 5 Commercial Center
VI. OLD BUSINESS
A. Fees Policy lcon't from Sewember 18 19951
VII. NEW BUSINESS
A. None j
IX. ADJOURNMENT
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APPROVED MINUTES
EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, RECREATION & NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
MONDAY, OCTOBER 2, 1995 7:00 P.M. CITY CENTER
8080 MITCHELL ROAD
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Claire Hilgeman, Chair; Richard Brown,
Bruce Bowman, Don Jacobson, Vicki
Koenig, David Kracum, Joanne Kube-
Harderwijk
COMMISSION STAFF: Robert A. Lambert, Director of Parks,
Recreation & Facilities; Stuart A. Fox,
Manager of Parks and Natural Resources;
Laurie Helling, Manager of Recreation
Services
I. ROLL CALL
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 P.M. by Chair, Claire Hilgeman. All
members were present.
Ic H. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION: Brown moved to approve the agenda as published. Koenig seconded
the motion and it passed unanimously.
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - SEPTEMBER 18, 1995
MOTION: I-Iilgeman moved to approve the Minutes of September 18, 1995 as
amended: page 11, second paragraph should read... Bowman commented that the
way he looks at this is he looks at the dollars subsidized per individual rather than
the total dollars as a way of evaluating value for the general taxpayer. Page 5,
under the first motion, third sentence, change... this lot to... this/his lot.
Bowman seconded the motion and it passed unanimously.
IV. PETITIONS REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATIONS
A. None,
V. DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS
A. Dell Road and Highway 5 Commercial Cgnter
approved Minutes
Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 2
October 2, 1995
Staff referred the Commission to memos dated September 27, 1995, and
September 22, 1995, from Stuart A. Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural
Resources; staff reports dated September 22, 1995, September 8, 1995,
August 11, 1995 and July 7, 1995, from Michael D. Franzen, City
Planner.
Dick Putnam, Tandem Corporation, reviewed his development proposal
with the Parks Commission using visual aids. He noted that the proposed
site is 4.5 acres Neighborhood Commercial originally approved in 1989.
It is the last of about 60 acres of land including Summer Oaks, Jamestown
Villas, and the Cascades Townhomes, to be developed. The site is broken
w into two separate pieces of the 4.5 acres.
The eastern parcel is a little bit higher than the area along Highway 5.The
eastern building is about 10,000 square feet for a proposed day care center
by Kindercare. It houses roughly 180 children. The western portion of
the site depicts about 17,500 square feet of commercial space, which is
proposed as a restaurant and multiple tenant commercial.
Regarding the trail connections, the site works well with the natural
features. In this case, it's the major tree mass and the predominant oak
trees and some ash on site. On this site, the major trails are along Dell
Road which run north and south, and is in place today. Regarding the
secondary trail and sidewalk system, there is a sidewalk on the outside of
Cascade that's in place today. There is an eight foot bituminous bike trail
on the north side of Cascade Drive.
What's being proposed in this plan is the continuation of the eight foot
trail up to the first entrance, and then winding it up through some of the
wooded area.
Using photographs, he showed where they are proposing a turn lane from
the existing wall to provide a free turn to the right. To put the trail
connection to it in the normal case, it would effect cutting into the slope
and cutting back the trees. The solution proposed is to take the trail at the
base of the wall and bring it up the hill and winding it through the trees.
Grade wise it works better, and it also gives a little different feel than
what's there.
Within the site, the connections to the trail along Cascade and Dell Road
are proposed with a connection from Dell Road throughout the parking
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approved Minutes
Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 3
October 2, 1995
lot, and into the neighborhood center. There is also a connection from the
day care center through the woods that connects through the site. The
plans are fairly well tied in with the bike and trail system.
There is an L-shaped area on the site which will be left with the existing
trees and the brush. The natural undergrowth will be left and will provide
a buffer.
The restaurant is 5000 square feet, and they are looking to reduce the
overall size of the restaurant because of fears from the residents that it's
a regional size restaurant. They would like to lower it to about 3500
square feet. In the process of doing that, it allows them a little flexibility
of some of the things talked about in the report regarding some of the
trees. By reducing the size of the restaurant, it allows them to work the
outdoor deck dining on the back side of the restaurant a little easier. It
will allow them to shorten it up and keep another fairly large oak tree and
three additional trees. By reducing the amount of parking, it allows them
to swing the road in a different way. They can also do this on the
�. southern portion of the site as well.
Fox reviewed the staff report with the Parks Commission. He noted that
the original request was to change the zoning from Rural to Neighborhood
Commercial. Regarding tree loss, there are a number of calculations that
will work because of the amount of changes and configurations that the
site went through. Because of that, the final calculation came out at 38%.
The majority of the trees on the site are oaks. There is also a number of
other significant trees which include a number of ironwood. Normally
under the Tree Preservation, they don't show up because they are under
12 inches, but there are several on the site over 12 inches. Some are on
the corner of Dell Road and Cascade, and by putting the sidewalk there,
Staff is certain the ironwoods would be saved.
Staff feels this proposal is certainly within the parameters of the initial
Jamestown PUD which involved 60 acres in total. Staff estimated the tree
loss at 40%.
In terms of the wetland impact storm water treatment, the recommendation
of the Staff was to incorporate this as part of a series of ponds that were
constructed as natural wetland to the south. The recommendation of the
( engineering staff was to have a cash distribution to the storm utility fund
_ C approved Minutes
Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 4
October 2, 1995
which pays for maintenance of the NURP pond, and also the construction
of a general NURP pond if needed in the future.
The only sidewalk that would be City controlled would be the sidewalk
along the north side of Cascade Drive. It would connect two existing
trails on Dell Road from an existing trail on Cascade Drive.
Brown expressed concern about the trees behind where the restaurant and
stores will be serviced. Putnam showed a sketch of the building and noted
that all the trash enclosures are interior to the building. The restaurant
would be serviced from the front or the side.
Koenig asked if the restaurant is going to be smaller, is that going to
effect the drainage pattern mentioned in the report. Fox replied that it's
critical where that building is placed because of the slope. There is about ,
a six foot elevation change from the upper parking lot to the back of the
building. It's going to be critical to get the drainage out of there. It's
also critical where the building actually sits because there are some trees
with rather large diameters, and horizontal branches of 15 to 20 feet off
the ground.
Bowman expressed concern about the line of sight where the trail crosses
the access road. He was concerned about a stop sign in front of that trail.
Putnam commented that he feels it's a safe view and showed photographs
of the view. He noted that there will be a stop sign for the cars.
Hilgeman commented that there's also a need for a stop sign where the
bikers will be coming down the trail.
Fox noted that it would be striped as a crosswalk so cars leaving the site
would recognize it as a pedestrian crosswalk. It is going to have to be
located on the site so they have to make sure they have adequate site lines.
Staff's concern is about the "S" curve nature of it. Rollerbladers are
going to have a hard time, so they have to make that a straight connection
with adequate site distance.
Brown noted that the bikers have the most problems on trails when they
come in contact with the street. The intersections are where most of the
bicycle accidents are. He agrees with Bowman that they must have clear
visibility.
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approved Minutes
C' Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 5
October 2, 1995
Koenig was concerned about the missing ironwoods on the Tree
Inventory. She was also concerned about the fencing around the site.
Hilgeman asked if the treatment ponds are currently on the Kindercare
site. Fox replied that the treatment pond is the large natural pond south
of the Cascade Townhomes. There is a large wetland area and that's
included in the calculations for this site.
Hilgeman asked if the restaurant was kept at 900 square feet, would they
save a significant number of trees. Fox replied maybe two or three trees
would be saved, or possibly four or five.
Hilgeman expressed concern about the tree replacement of conifers as
opposed to deciduous trees. Fox replied that the screening landscaping
ordinance requires certain types of buildings screen their parking area,and
this is one of those situations where it must be screened all year round.
The majority right now is proposed to be shade trees with the coniferous
material at the highest areas.
Kracum commended Mr. Putnam on his willingness to cooperate with
Staff. He is the owner of this property and is developing it in the manner
in which it was intended all along. He is impressed with his effort to
preserve the trees and finds it very refreshing. This is commercial
property and it borders Highway 5 and Dell Road, which are busy roads.
MOTION: Kube-Harderwijk moved to approve the recommendation of
the staff on September 27, 1995, and that the Commission would like to
see all the natural areas fenced off before grading begins; and that this
recommendation is based on careful consideration of line of sight between
bikers and riders at the intersections, at the side entrance, and exits within
the trail system. Koenig seconded the motion and it passed unanimously.
VI. OLD BUSINESS
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A. Fees Policy (con't from September 18. 1995)
Staff referred the Commission to a memo dated September 26, 1995, from
Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Facilities.
Lambert, Helling and Frey continued their philosophical discussion with
(, the Commission on fee policies.
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r .approved Minutes
Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 6
October 2, 1995
Lambert commented that the Commission has to look at more than just the
fees because when you're looking at the fees, it's important to know how
many sessions you get for that fee, and how long the session is.
Staff conducted a brief survey of what other cities were charging for their
playground programs because that seems to be an issue. They also
included a survey that was done on preschool programs, and Edina did
that survey.
Hilgeman commented that this all comes down to the matter of what each
city is trying to attain. Either they are trying to attain that they make a
commitment to subsidize these programs to a certain extent so they can
provide for their citizens, or they are trying to reduce costs and not
subsidize to such a great extent. She is not sure what commitment Eden
Prairie has made.
Lambert noted that he personally thinks they should make a commitment
to stay in line with other communities. The Commission has to decide on
what they want to do and give a general direction on this. He feels that
special interest programs for kids should not be subsidized.
Hilgeman commented that if the City is making $6,000 for the golf
program, she doesn't feel right charging those people an additional $10.00
to subsidize other programs.
Hilgeman asked if staff feels the 20% for indirect costs is reasonable, or
do they think it's too high. Helling replied that it varies by program
areas. For some programs it may be fairly accurate saying 20%, and
some should probably be less, and some should probably be more. The
first time they do a program it takes a lot more of staff time involved to
get it going. If you're talking full time staff hours to be considered into
a program, then where do you draw the line?
Hilgeman suggested classifying it not according to the activity, but to the
type of use subsidized such as, adaptive recreation programs, senior
programs, preschool programs and youth athletic programs. It would be
trying to see which programs remain and which programs die.
Bowman commented that he's not sure they have to have anything
absolute yet. He thinks they need guidelines.
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/ .approved Minutes
Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 7
October 2, 1995
Hilgeman noted that she likes the idea of having exact guidelines based on
the general categories. It says based on the type of user rather than the
type of program.
Lambert commented that if the Commission all agree to do the categories
by user, they will break it down into a couple of groups. Staff will come
back with some categories and some percentages on what the maximum
subsidy would be as guidelines. Staff can also give examples of the
programs that have the biggest impact.
Hilgeman commented that they need to make giving donations for the
Staring Lake Concerts or the 4th of July celebration a little more feasible
for the residents. She suggested doing this by donation boxes or
newspapers.
Lambert commented that by enforcing donations, they will only get
nickels and dimes. However, staff can make an effort to have those
programs sponsored by companies, and it reduces the cost or the subsidy
significantly.
Hilgeman noted that she would like to give the citizens a chance to
supportt the functions they attend.
Bowman commented that he would like to see some guidelines for a
minimum number of participants in a program because he sees memoir
writing for adults with only six participants. He feels the time it takes for
some of these very small programs may not be worth it. Lyndell Frey
replied that some programs limit it to only six participants for different
reasons. Sometimes they can't have more than six participants.
Kube-Harderwijk commented that she feels it is very valid to take into
account what other communities are subsidizing.
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MOTION: Hilgeman moved to direct staff to establish categories with
some recommended subsidy percentages. Koenig seconded the motion and ;
it passed unanimously.
Staff will bring this back to the Commission with what they think the
impact will be on fees for those programs within those categories, and
they will make sure they keep including the 20% indirect cost amount.
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;approved Minutes
�! Eden Prairie Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission
Page - 8
October 2, 1995
VII. NEW BUSINESS
A. None.
VHL ADT URNMENT
MOTION: Hilgeman moved to adjourn. Jacobson seconded the motion and it
passed unanimously. The meeting was adjourned at 8:45 P.M.
Respectfully submitted,
Elinda Barley
• Recording Secretary
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