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Parks and Recreation - 11/16/1992 1992 NOVEMBER 16 MINUTES CITY OF EDENR- -A- 1111P IE I i. __T AGENDA EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, RECREATION & NATURAL. RESOURCES COMNIISSION MONDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 1992 7:30 P. M., CITY HALL COMMISSION MEMBERS: Pat Richard, Chair; Bruce Bowman, Claire Hilgeman, Joanne Kube-Harderwijk, Adam Ha&, David Kracum, Diane Popovich Lynch, Del Vanderploeg COMMISSION STAFF: Robert A. Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources; Barbara Penning Cross, Landscape Architect; Stuart A. Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources; Laurie Helling, Manager of Recreation Services I. ROLL CALL - Introduce Adam Harju II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - OCTOBER 5 and OCTOBER 6. 1992 / IV. PETITIONS, REQ MTS AND COMMUNICATIONS (� A. RaQuest from Hidden Ponds Homeowners to Subdivide Outlot A Hidden Ponds B. Request from Team Minnesota Hockey„ Inc. for educe Hourly Ice Time Rate for "Summer Hockey Festival" C. Letter from Dale C. Vaughan. Activities Director Shakopee High School V. DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS I A. Suburban Chevrolet B. Riverview Heights VI. OLD BUSINESS A. Proposal from Mrs. H. R. Fowler (con't from October 5. 1992) B. Trapping Ordinance VII. REPORTS OF COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF , A. Reports of Director of Parks. Recreation and Natural Resources I 1. Workshop for Park and Recreation Board/Commission Members i L y B. RR=rts of Landsca= Architect/Park Planner on Status of Park Construction and Improvements Proiects C. Re^^rt`s of Manage of Recreation Services 1. Summarize Visioning with Cgmmunily Education Staff 2, Registration Methods and Procedures for City Programs 3. Pmgra^ m Repot'ts a. S nbonnet Da_v b. Qktoberfest C. staring Lake Concert Series d. 1992 Dramatic Production of Lill Abner 4, Poligy on Pool Water Tem enure D. R=rts of Community Center Manager 1 1. B=rt on Status of Community.Center Addition Proiect 2. Recommendation for Change in Skating Lesson Program National Affiliation �. VRI.ADJOURNMENT parkag/bob a i C APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 1 Monday, November 16, 1992 7:30 p.m. , City Hall COMMISSION MEMBERS P114=1 NT Pat Richard, Chair; Claire Hilgeman , Joanne Kube- Harderwijk, David Kracum, Diane Popovich Lynch, Del Vanderploeg, Bruce Bowman, Adam Harju COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMISSION STAFF• Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources ; Barb Cross , Landscape Architect; Stu Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources; Roger Pauly, City Attorney I. ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order at 7:30 p.m. , by Chair, Pat Richard. Refer to memo dated November 10, 1992, from Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources; letter from Joyce D. Provo, Administrative Assistant to City Manager; and application to commission. Lambert introduced Adam Harju as the nonvoting youth/student representative to the Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission for the 1992-93 school year, saying that Adam would contribute by adding a student perspective. II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Lambert added an Air Water Quality Review Committee report as item 2 under VII. REPORTS OF COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF. III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - OCTABER 5 AND OCTOBER 6. 1992 MOTION: Lynch moved to approve the minutes as printed. Hilgeman r seconded the motion and it passed 7-0. -� IV. PETITIONS, REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATIONS A: Request from Hidden Ponds Homeowners to Subdivide Outlot A Hidden Ponds Refer to memo dated November 12, 1992, from Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources, newspaper article on the Hidden Ponds trail debate, ten resident letters to the City Council or Lambert, letter dated August 4, 1992, from Roger Pauly, City Attorney to Lambert, letter dated October 9, 1992, to Hidden Ponds Homeowners from Lambert, and newspaper article regarding use of lawn chemicals. Richard gave a review of the situation, requesting that discussion be limited to one hour, stating that, if need be, the commission would later revisit the Hidden Ponds issue. i Lambert _ reviewed the staff reports on the proposal , asking that all understand that the discussion regarded private trails on private property, and that the City had gotten petition to subdivide the 1st Addition early this year from four property owners. He stated that the two main issues for discussion were: (1) Are we going to allow the trails to disappear or keep {� them, and (2) Are these trails safe? He stated that his recommendation would be removal of the asphalt and replacement, if replaced, with recycled asphalt or ag lime. He then referred to a map, pointing out the Hidden Pond I and Hidden Pond II Additions, land that was private land, city-owned land, trail systems and sidewalk. Lambert went over his staff report to the commission, saying that there were some other issues to be considered. For one, at least a portion of the trail in Hidden Pond Outlot A ran across a significant part of private property lots and that the water level was a big concern in terms of safety. He pointed out that the soil in the outlets was of poor quality and therefore asphalt was a poor choice for use in trails, that recycled asphalt or ag lime would be better. He also pointed out that today staff wouldn't recommend the type of trail system that exists, today staff would probably recommend a sidewalk system instead. He asked if one question wasn't, should the sidewalk system be extended to Duck Lake Trail, and mentioned the Park View Lane, South Shore Lane and Valley View Road sidewalk additions. .. _.......1.:i L... .:.l.,. .. a...,... ,......_.._ .._ ...+.... .. .......... ......... m,.,.•w..........,.......,.. APPROVED MINUTES MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 3 Lambert pointed out that the lot owners may not agree to be assessed, and asked if the City should consider paying for the assessment. He felt that most people already assume that the trails belong to the city, and felt one option would be to mark private property corners and allow people to walk on the turf within the outlots. Lambert also suggested that gg perhaps a survey should be sent out to all 258 homes involved., asking that if the trail system was to be retained, would the homeowners be willing to pay for them or if they would want a sidewalk system instead. Lambert clarified that at this meeting, staff was not going to try to prove who owned the outlots, and that the ownership was not clear, stating that 1976 memos showed cloudy ownership of property. He called on Stu Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources, to share information on lot ownership in chronological order, and added that Roger Paul, City Attorney, would then add legal input. Stu Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources, gave a brief synopsis in chronological order of what took place: • Hidden Ponds * Subdivision was approved in December 1972. • December of 1973, Articles of Incorporation for a Hidden Ponds Homeowners Association were filed with the State of Minnesota. • April/May of 1975, Hidden Ponds 2nd Addition was approved. • September of 1975, letter from the City of Eden Prairie to Len Swedlund of Ecklund Swedlund, questioning the establishment of the Homeowners Association. • Also September of 1975, Len Swedlund applied to HUD for federally guaranteed assistance. • December of 1975, there was a reply from HUD requesting copies of the Articles of Incorporation of the Homeowners Association. • February of 1976, there was a letter from the City of Eden Prairie to HUD regarding formation of the Homeowners Association, saying it was filed in 1973 . Lj APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 4 • Also in February of 1976, • there was a letter from A. H. Michals, attorney for Ecklund Swedlund, requesting clarification on the organization of the Association. • March of 1976, there was a letter from the residents of the Hidden Pond 1st Addition to the City of Eden Prairie wanting again to discuss Association property. • May of 1976, the City received deeds to several Hidden Ponds 2nd Addition outlots from Ecklund Swedlund. • June of 1976, Restated Articles of Incorporation were filed, creating the Hidden Ponds Homeowners Association of Eden Prairie- (three word difference)- filed for the 2nd Addition and creating bylaws and covenants for the 2nd Addition. • November of 1976, there was a letter from A. H. Michals, attorney for Ecklund Swedlund, stating that the neighbors of Hidden Ponds, because they were in limbo, should be included with the 2nd i.. Addition in the Homeowners Association. • July of 1977, there was Certification of Title was registered giving Outlots A and B of Hidden Ponds to the Hidden Ponds Homeowners Association. Stu Fox summed it up by saying that in the mid 701s, there are questions about whether a Homeowners Association was filed for the Hidden Ponds 1st Addition, and that that document wasn't recorded on the deeds. The 2nd Addition was filed, as well as bylaws and covenants. Lambert said that a number of attorneys have looked at the situation and haven't been able to straighten it out, but that, though he may later regret it, he was willing to step in the middle of it and hopefully help finally resolve it. Roger Pauly, City Attorney, emphasized that he saw Torrens Certificate of Title for Outlots A and B on Hidden Ponds showing direct evidence of ownership of the lots and that they showed ownership by Hidden Ponds Homeowners Association, formed in 1973. He said he had seen no evidence of the Association of Eden Prairie. He asked the assembly of homeowners if any of them were aware of the Hidden Pond lst Addition Association or if their titles referred to a Hidden Ponds 1st Addition. 'APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM, 11/16/92 5 M One resident said that their title did, indeed, show covenants with a Homeowners Association of Eden Prairie; others said that their lots did not have covenants and the conclusion was that there seemed to be a 60/40 split among homes. One resident, asked if the City was going to pay for a title opinion. Richard, Chair, then asked residents to come to the podium to state their opinions. Jerry Thimsen of 7040 Park View Lane, said that he was one of the original four homeowners and that, as last resort, they had asked the City to subdivide Outlot A of Hidden Ponds. He said that he felt that Lambert had covered most areas of concern to him but pointed out that if bike paths/trails were put in Hidden Ponds Outlot A, in many cases the area between trail and water was less than 6' . He also said that invasion of privacy was another concern, pointing out that there was only 28' from the trail to the back of one neighbor's home. Robert Cole of 7160 Park View Lane in the 1st Addition of Hidden Ponds, said that when some of the residents received Lambert's October 9th letter, they devised a survey, canvassing 67 of the 76 homeowners. The survey i included three questions: (1) Are you for or against the Association? (2) What do you think should happen with the trails/paths? and (3) Where do you see the City of Eden Prairie fitting in with the trails? Cole said that opinions were diverse and it was hard to come to any conclusion. of the 67, 15 or 22% were for an Association with 28 or 19% against, and the remaining approx. 50% having no opinion. On the trail question, 73% of respondents were for retaining the trails, 16% against, with the balance having no opinion. On the City's involvement, 41% wanted the City of Eden Prairie to have ownership to the trails, with 59% having no opinion. Cole said that personally, he was for the trails, viewing them as an amenity, was for City ownership of the trails, and would be willing to pay a nominal share of the costs, though there might be extenuating circumstances. •APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 6 Richard asked Cole if he was surprised that 73% of the people wanted to retain the trails, and Cole said he was not. Richard also asked Cole if he felt that the City should do a survey and Cole answered yes. Gunnar Madson of 7115 Ticonderoga Trail said that he felt the trails were a nuisance, hazard, and involved loss of homeowner privacy. He said that if the trail was expanded, it would be only 15-20' away from his wall. He said that he found the traffic on the trails to be noisy and felt that the trails invited problems to the homeowners. Also, as for the Outlots, he said that if there was 3.1 of snow in winter and the trail was covered, people walked right through homeowner lots. Debbie Noterman of 7103 Park View Lane, said that although she wasn't an original owner, she had lived there for 12 years. Her feeling was that when they bought their home, the trail was there, as was the case for many of the other residents, and as such, the residents should not now be complaining about the existence of the trails. She said that she felt the City of Eden Prairie probably should pick up the tab for the costs but that she would be willing to pay part. She did point out, however, that 60% of trail use was by nonresidents. Richard asked if her home backed up to the trail and Noterman said that it did not. Stan Noterman, Debbie's husband, also of 7103 Park View Lane, pointed out that though he did not know if there was a normal standard for trails, this issue was particularly unique because the trails were in existence before the City began building trails. Luther Nelson of 7130 Park View Lane said that he was an original homeowner and had lived there for 18 years. He said that Outlot B, just north of Valley View, was owned by the Eden Prairie Homeowners Association and that on his certificate was Ecklund Swedlund's, now bankrupt, address. He said that he thought it was never followed through that homeowners go back later and add Homeowner Association membership on Titles, and it was probably a C legal question. He read from his certificate that there was to be no evaluation or taxes on the trails; that looking at the original plat approval, the trails were to APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 7 be public; and that the Homeowners Association was to own the land and the City was to have an easement across the land for the trails but that no easement was listed on his certificate. Nelson said that personally he considered the trails an amenity but felt that the trails should be maintained by the City. He felt that the trails should be 8' wide but where curvy, 5' would be adequate. Nelson then asked who owned the ponds, pointing out that since both 0utlots were part of the drainage system, if there was a problem with the drainage system, who was to be responsible. Lambert answered that the City did have drainage •and utility easement on those lots and the the City also had the right to transfer over those outlets to service the ponds. Stu Fox commented that when property is designated as ! "common ground" , the taxation value is placed against the !_ other properties within the subdivision. Bruce Andersen of 19200 Valley View Road said that he was one of the original owners but that his property was not on the trails. His concern was that if the trails became private, it would' keep kids from the ponds. He also viewed the trails as an amenity, wanted the City of Eden Prairie to take over and revamp the trails, and wanted the City to do a survey of homeowners of both Hidden Pond 1st Addition and Hidden Ponds 2nd Addition. John Peifer of 7020 Park View Lane said that he was one of the four homeowners who had requested subdivision of Outlot A Hidden Pond. He said that he had asked if there was a homeowners association and had been told no, that the original association went bankrupt. Peifer said that his concern was that in the spring he had seen the paths underwater for 3-4 days in a row and that, as a result, his lot got walked on by path users. He stated that it was his home that was only 28' away from the trails and that people sometimes walked as close as 151 to his home. He said that he wanted kids using the trails to be supervised and that he felt the trail was on his land. C : ........ . _. ,APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 8 Allyn Forsman of 18180 South Shore Lane West said that his back corner was 30' from the pond though is property was not on the trail. He said that he was concerned about the trails from a wetland aspect, that the ponds were home to geese, egrets, ducks and muskrat and that he wanted it protected. He pointed out that someone had thrown chunks of broken asphalt from the trail onto the ice and that upon thawing in spring, the asphalt would end up polluting the pond. He said he did not want any paths or trails but wanted the areas preserved as natural and wetlands. Forsman also felt that he was paying approximately $50 a month in taxation for his view of the ponds. He said he had bought his house from Ecklund Swedlund and that his title showed no covenants, just right of way with the neighbors (the Thimsens) for storm sewer. He also said that he wanted to challenge the neighborhood survey aforementioned, saying that he hadn't understood it when he answered it. Terrie Thimsen of 7040 Park View, who bought their home in 1982, passed out photos showing flooded trails; her feeling was that the flooded trails were unsafe for her children. Thimsen also said that if the trail was owned by the City, it would be public and make her backyard also too public. She said that she felt that when they first moved there, the trails were used primarily by neighbors, but that at present the residents no longer knew the people using the trails, that they were strangers. Thimsen also brought up that the rehabilitation home being opened at Dell Road and Valley View included sex offenders and, as this was close to the trails, those residents might use the trails, in her opinion making the trails unsafe. Bob Pemberton of 18020 South Shore Lane West, who purchased his home in April of 1976, said that he felt there had been a common interest in the trails. He said that he felt he was paying taxes on them, but failed to see where privacy was an issue as the trails were there first. He said that he himself wanted to keep the trails and would be willing to pay for their upkeep. Scott Harri of 19090 Deerfield Trail said that he was a resident of the 2nd Addition, having bought his home in 1980. He said that he and his two children, aged 7 and 4' APPROVED_ MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 9 10, enjoyed the trails. He said he sympathized with the homeowners as to the degradation of the trails, and felt that the homeowners should be more proactive in maintaining the trails. He said that because the trails were there first, the trails were seen as public even if they actually were on private property. He then asked if the City had any right under "adverse possession" to take over the trails. Roger Paul, City Attorney, answered no, that because the land is Torrens property, the City could not get possession. Harri then said he would be willing personally to pay some assessment. He said that the City should try hard to extend the trail system but that he knew they had lost all referendums proposing that. Richard, Chair, interrupted by asking that the record shown that the City did have one success, passing one referendum extending the trails one year ago. Harri then said that regarding the flooding of the trails, perhaps there might be an engineering solution that would raise the trails. He added that narrowing the trails might answer part of the problem of proximity of homes to trails. He then asked if the City had any data on safety records re assaults, with or without trails. Lambert answered that in asking for police reports, data showed that there was no difference, whether there was sidewalk, trails, or nothing, as to number of crimes committed. Richard then thanked the assembly, encouraging all to stay for the rest of the meeting. He said that his recommendation would probably be for the City to get a survey done. He then invited discussion among the commission members. Vanderploeg said that he thought that the first priority would be to get ownership of the lots. Lambert said that if the trails were considered f hazardous, the city could removed them without owning. C He recommended assessing the cost of their removal. He 1 - APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 10 added that the best way to get ownership would be through tax forfeiture. Lambert said that a survey done by the City should include at least three questions: (1) Are you for or against the trails, (2) Would you be willing to pay an assessment, example, $15/year for x number of years? and (3) Which Addition are you a resident of? He said that each location needed to be looked at and standards today compared with before, saying that at present sidewalk or pedestrian walks are 5' wide. Discussion between Richard and Lambert as to the timetable of further commission discussion of the issue ensued. Lambert felt that the surveys would have to wait until after Thanksgiving, and that residents would be notified as to when the survey results would be discussed. At that time, he would make his recommendations. He said that the City Council probably would not hear the issue until February. Richard asked for other questions or comments from the commissioners. Bowman asked about the legal situation since the outlets were owned by somebody, but trails shared. He asked if, since the trails were there for so long, there was something like squatters' rights that, uncontested for so long a period, the trails could go back to ownership by the Outlots. Pauly, City Attorney, pointed out that since the property was under the Torrens registered system nothing could be done under "adverse use." Lambert pointed out that he could not imagine ever, by today's standard, recommending that a trail be on someone's private property. He said that he had a real concern, but that there must be some compromises since the trails couldn't be changed today to meet today's standard. Richard asked for other comments or a motion. I. f iAPPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 11 MOTION: Lynch moved that the Parks Commission recommend that staff prepare a survey to the property owners of Hidden Pond #1 and Hidden Pond #2 which designates the homeowners preference for or against the trails and that the survey clearly distinguish between those people who are located in Outlot A as well as Outlot B so that the results would be definitive enough for the Commission to make a decision based upon the results of that survey. Hilgeman seconded the motion. Discussion included a question by Kracum asking if clarification was needed since 60% of the trail users were nonresidents. Lambert answered no, that the trails would be used by anyone whether or not there was a gate put up for residents only and whether or not the trails were publicly or privately owned. The motion passed 7-0. Richard, again thanked the attending residents and homeowners, pointing out that the Commission is appointed by the City Council, that the Commission makes recommendations to the City Council who then act for, or against their recommendations. He said that it sounded like their recommendation was going to be made to the City Council sometime in January/February, after survey results were in, and that residents would be notified of the meeting and at that meeting the Commission's recommendations to the Council would be discussed. He invited all to come and be involved, saying that he, himself, was surprised by the number of people who have this trail in back of their homes, yet wanted to keep the trail in place. B. Request from Team Minnesota Hockey. Inc for Reduced Hourly Ice Time Rate for "Summer Hockgy Festival" I Refer to memo dated November 10, 1992, from Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources, and two letters dated September 6, 1992, and October 29, 1992, from John Wedemeyer, General Manager of Team Minnesota Hockey, Inc. APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 12 Dave Black, Eden Prairie Community Center Operations Manager, introduced John Wedemeyer and Ed Williams of Team Minnesota Hockey, Inc. and invited Wedemeyer to the podium. John Wedemeyer stated that Team Minnesota Hockey, Inc. wants to use the Eden Prairie Community Center in the summer of 1993 to host two weeks of practice and games. He said that in 1991-92, the games took place in Burnsville and Edina; in 1993 , he expected 70-80 teams to participate. He said that the organization was a nonprofit organization, with limited revenue, and thus required a discounted .rate for ice time. Dave Black, Eden Prairie Community Center Operations Manager, stated the staff proposal . He said that the main question was, "What should summer ice cost?" He said that at best at present, they were only breaking even at meeting operating costs. With the proposal of Team Minnesota Hockey, Inc. , the buying of 150-200 ice hours would turn a break even situation into one of a profit of $7,000.00 or more. Also, he pointed out that with a discounted summer ice policy and by hosting someone like Team Minnesota Hockey, Inc. , this could be used as a selling point to others.' Lambert said that the main issue was that the City of Eden Prairie hadn't discounted prices before for summer ice. He said that he had asked Black to do a survey comparing costs with other local arenas. He called attention to the last page of Black's analysis projecting 1993 summer ice revenue and said that it was important to both to be able to cover costs and be competitive with other arenas. Lambert asked for a policy, especially for the Eden Prairie residents sake. At present, 90% of ice time is usually from Eden Prairie residents. MOTION: Richard made a motion to go with the staff recommendation and discount schedules of the November 10, 1992 memo, adopting option #2 for a one-year trial period, with the condition that Commission get an update and that Dave Wedemeyer give a brief synopsis after the 1993 "Summer Hockey Festival"; Wedemeyer agreed. Kube- Harderwijk seconded the motion and it passed 7-0. APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 13 C. Letter from Dale C. Vaughan, Activities Director, Shakopee High School Information item only. V. DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS A A. Suburban Chevrolet Refer to memo dated October 23, 1992 from Michael I w Franzen, Senior Planner. Herb Margolis, Suburban Chevrolet, a development consultant, presented the Suburban Chevrolet Development. Using maps and drawings, he stated that the dealerships wanted to proceed and work in phases. He said that the old, existing Factory Outlet Center could not be worked with itself, but that the development would be kept in context with the Factory Outlet Center concept. They 1. would like to start with Phase I, the Chevrolet Dealership. Margolis showed how a NURP pond would be set up, collecting phosphorus and other materials. After draining, sediments would settle in the NURP pond, allowing only clean water to go into the storm sewer. He also showed how building were made smaller so parking would be relayed. Margolis said that the concept was to make a park so that people could see that there were a lot of cars for selection purposes but would not see a distracting, unattractive mass of cars. He stated that sightlines had been checked and berms raised, and that lighting was tucked so as not to affect lighting neighborhoods. He said that the development provided 35,000 square feet of green area. Berms had been raised to 81 , even though passing cars could only see 4-1/2' . He said that they had addressed the issue of the overhead garage doors being unsightly by making them look decorative and like they were a continuation of the building. Barbara Penning Cross, Landscape Architect, stated that Cthis development contained the same plan as the plan that had been approved the previous year. she said that in i i i !APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 i. 14 her opinion, this second plan was actually even better, with more berming, better screening, and better landscaping. Hilgeman asked why this development was before the Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission. Cross answered that this was because it was a major development that had been previously reviewed by this Commission and was being changed. .1 Vanderploeg asked how big the included pond was; Margolis answered 1/2 acre. Vanderploeg asked how high the fencing was and Margolis told him 12 feet. Margolis then pointed out that the key to dealerships was used, not new, cars, and that 90% of new cars could be located offsite. He said that sufficient lighting was needed at night to properly present used cars so consumers could see scratches, dents, etc. Richard asked for a motion to approve staff's recommendation. In discussion, Lambert pointed out that the Commission policy in the past included requesting to review large developments as a park/natural resource issue because they may affect natural resources visually. He asked if the Commission had changed their mind and would not prefer to review these types of projects. Commission members indicated they wished to continue to review large projects. i MOTION: Kracum made a motion that the Commission approve staff's recommendation as contained in the letter by Michael Franzen of October 23, 1992. It was seconded and passed 6-1. Hilgeman voting against. i B. Riverview Heights i Refer to memo dated November 9, 1992, from Barbara a Penning Cross, Landscape Architect, letter dated November 10, 1992 from a resident, and a memo dated November 6, 1992, from M. Franzen, Senior Planner. C Beth Simenstad, Hustad Development Corporation, presented a revised development plan for the 19 lots that will make i APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 15 up the Riverview Heights II Development, showing the development on large scale maps. She stated that 17 acres of the development would be gifted to the City. The developer said that they would like the trail that would connect to the proposed trails within the Minnesota River Valley to go through the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission property along Riverview Drive. Lambert suggested that several issues needed to be addressed. He said that the developer intended to donate one parcel and a 150' outlet along the river sometime in the future. Lambert said that the main issue here was the trails issue. He said that it was staff's plan to provide access to the trails along the Minnesota River with City trails, and that there were three proposed locations: (1) Purgatory Creek, (2) at the east side of this project at road right of way, and (3) Riverview Road where it dead ends. He said that the Metropolitan Waste Controls Commission (MWCC) said that they would approve a public trail if there was no strong opposition from the neighbors. However, he said that there had been some opposition to moving the "middle access" trail from the east side of this project to the MWCC site. Lambert said that it was staff's recommendation to maintain their options, including wanting the easement kept, which may be a trail later, or, if it would provide a better access, move to the MWCC location and abandon this location. He asked that staff study both options and suggested a neighborhood survey be done. Cross said that a Level 2 environmental audit would be done to determine if the site was acceptable for park usage. Lynch asked if there was any reason to suspect environmental damage and Cross answered that the site was where the Williams' pipeline broke in 1987 and a MWCC spill occurred in the same area. I Lambert stated that the proposed 17 acre gift would be turned over to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to be part of the Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge, but the City would accept it only if they would accept it. 'APPROVED MINUTES C EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 16 Kracum asked if the plan was to leave the area natural and Lambert answered yes, with 10% for picnic and trails and 90% left natural. Gayle Diehl of 10530 West Riverview Drive showed enlarged aerial detail maps of the pipeline disaster and surrounding areas. She was very opposed to the use of the MWCC road as a trail access. r Laura and Kevin Blummel also said they did not want the MWCC road as a trail access. Richard stated that staff wanted to keep both options open. A resident asked what would be required to demonstrate t significant opposition to the MWCC folks, feeling that neighborhood sentiment could supply that. r Diehl stated that she had called the MWCC and that they �1,.. were flabbergasted that their road was under consideration at all as a proposed trail access. Marty Pinlow, resident, stated that none of the residents on the east and west sides of Riverview Drive had been notified at all of' this potential trail access, pointing out that only those within 500' from the development were notified. A resident of 10529 West Riverview Drive pointed out that he was concerned that the lots around the area would have too many parked cars around them if this trail site was used. Laura Blummel gave a lengthy opinion, with photos, as to why the MWCC site was a poor choice for a trail site. She said that the Williams pipeline had burst because of a manmade error, that one of three pipes had mistakenly been closed. She said that the disaster had cost the loss of many trees and vegetation, saying that when the pipe burst, millions and millions and millions and millions of raw sewage was dumped on the site. She felt that it was, therefore, no great gift from the developer. Blummel said that at a meeting held before the City C Council in 1987, there was a unanimous decision to restore the site back to a natural state. She also ( .APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 17 stated that in 1988, the City •Counc:il had discussed a grading permit and pointed out that the area could not very well be restored if there was a trail on it. Blummel said that at that time, the City Council had said that the area would be private and restoration made and showed a landscaping plan from June 7, 1988, that included restoration. Blummel felt that the City of Eden Prairie had not lived up to the commitment they had made at that time and that, to date, no revegetation had occurred. Blummel asked why a commission that reported to the City Council was coming back 5 years after the City Council had made that commitment and once again opening it up for discussion. Simenstad then said that Hustad Development was very interested in cooperating with the City on this issue. She mentioned other properties where trail access problems had been resolved. She stated that no matter where the trail access would be located, there would be problems with parking. Richard, Chair, asked that the record show that the Browns had always been very cooperative with the City. Lambert said that he did not expect the trail issue to be decided now, that the neighborhood needed to be surveyed. He pointed out that the neighborhood might even say they didn't want a middle trail at all. He gave as an example Mitchell Lake, saying that when a middle trail wasn't initially provided, residents later cam back asking why they had to walk 1 and 1/2 miles to the trail when others did not, so the City of Eden Prairie had had to buy property between lots to provide one. He again stated that staff wanted to keep the trail option open, that the issue to be decided this evening was only the subdivision before the Commission. Lynch referred to staff report, page 6 , saying that she would like to see a survey done on all open areas. She asked who monitored the areas- the developer or City staff. Lambert answered that usually there was an arrangement with the developer, that an inspector in the Planning r: APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 1s Department monitored what trees-were to be preserved and that if the developer had to remove certain trees, they would also have to replace them. Lynch asked if the City of Eden Prairie had any ordinances on fertilizers. Lambert answered that Eden Prairie did not but that some other cities did, requiring that only nonphosphorus fertilizers be used. Lambert said that he did not understand how those ordinances were enforced or regulated. w Lynch asked what part of Riverview Heights was part of the survey of open spaces and Lambert answered the lower level, including the 17 acres to be gifted. Vanderploeg said he wanted to recommend that the opposing residents get a letter from Williams regarding the easement they had across the MWCC property, as well as obtaining one from the MWCC themselves. A resident stated that when their house was built, a trail access was not a consideration and that this seemed unfair. Richard said that he felt that the trail issue maybe should be decided before the first hole was even dug. MOTION: Richard made a motion to approve the Riverview Heights II Development per staff recommendations, leaving trail options open for 90 days, with trail easement finalized before development commenced digging. The motion was seconded by Kube-Harderwijk and passed 7-0. VI. OLD BUSINESS A. proposal from Mrs. H.H. Fowler (con't from 10/05/92 Refer to memo dated November 10, 1992 from Bob Lambert, Director of Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources, memo dated November 11, 1992 from John Getz, Historical Interpreter, and attached list of collection of antiques. Lynch stated that she was not comfortable recommending approval of the purchase without knowing what was on the lot or without being able to compare this particular lot i .APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 19 with others in an open lot survey and Kracum seconded this opinion. Bowman said that he had visited the lot and thought it very desirable and recommended to keep the option to purchase open. He agreed, however, that comparison to other properties was needed. Lambert stated that a lot of the purchase conditions made acquiring the property questionable, such as the condition that the property be a life estate for Mrs. Fowler's son. He also said that the condition that the buildings •be retained as historical buildings might not want to be met, as the land might be more valuable as a site for an archeological dig containing Indian mounds and artifacts. He asked Mrs. Fowler if the conditions were negotiable. Mrs. Fowler answered that it was wrong to dwell on the historical aspects of the property, suggesting it was more valuable as a cultural center, museum or art center and that the life estate condition was up to her son to forfeit if he so decided. She was adamant on keeping the two homes as museums. Richard asked if the offer for purchase would still be open if the buildings were torn down. Mrs. Fowler said that it would not. Lynch moved that the Commission regretfully turn down the proposal based on concerns that it would not be available for use as a park site for some time. She emphasized that the commission was respectfully happy that such an offer was made to them. Vanderploeg seconded. In discussion, Bowman asked the other commission members if they wanted to totally reject the offer or table it. Lynch answered that Mrs. Fowler would be more than welcome to come back to the commission with a new proposal, such as purchase as an archeological sight. Bowman asked that commission be more specific. Vanderploeg said he was opposed to lifetime use by Mrs. Fowler's son and Hilgeman expressed her opposition to the condition that the buildings not be taken down. Hilgeman i APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 20 also suggested that Mrs. Fowler contact Kate Halverson to see if the antiques would be valuable to Halverson and the new Eden Prairie Cultural Center being proposed as cultural artifacts. She also suggested that perhaps Mrs. Fowler's lot be a better site for the cultural center than the one currently being proposed. Lynch withdrew her earlier motion, Vanderploeg withdrawing his second. MOTION: Lynch moved that the Commission respectfully reject the acquisition due to the inability of the site's use as a park site and Kube-Harderwijk seconded. In discussion, Lambert agreed that it was a good motion, as the site, buildings, and antiques were not really valuable to Parks but may be valuable from a cultural standpoint. The Cultural Commission and Heritage Preservation Commission could recommend to the City Council based on those issues. Motion passed, 7-0. B. Trapping Ordinance Trapping ordinance was removed to the next meeting. VII. REPORTS OF COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF A. Rgogrts of Director of Parks Recreation and Natural Resources Workshop for Park and Recreation Board/ Commission Members. Workshop was an information item only; Hilgeman pointed out that the deadline for registration was already passed. i 2. Air Water Quality Review Committee Lambert read a memo dated November 12, 1992, from Craig Dawson which said that the Commission proposed essentially an audit committee that would review the responsibilities of the City and other r 'i - r ;. .: _ .._.. ..':�:r ...._ � r":... ... ._....r ,....L... ..3_•- ..::f:,,�.,.. .11'.L.....•u.r r.. ... .x...[arx,.lz._s..en:s......rr.:-xrr..r•l.ra. .. ...r...'rvxtur v-v ...,....,._ �r4 ( iAPPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 21 agencies in air and water quality, with most effort in water quality as well as examining the track record of public agencies in Eden Prairie. The Committee members were to be made up of two members from the Waste Management Commission, one from the Planning Commission, one member each from Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources, Planning, J-r Public Works, and City Manager's Office and one staff from Barr Engineering. Lambert stated that although the Commission had several weeks, it should think of who might volunteer for the committee. B. Reports of Landscape Architect/Park Planner 1. Report on Status of Park Construction and Improvements Projects Information only article. C. Reports of Manager of Recreation Services Is, Summarize Visioning with Community Education Staff Refer to memo dated November 10, 1992, from Laurie Helling, Manager of Recreation Services. Information only article. i 2. Registration Methods and Procedures for City. Programs Refer to memo dated November 10, 1992 from Laurie Helling, Manager of Recreation Services. Information only article. 3. Program Reports a. Sunbonnet Day b. Oktobgrfest C. Staring Lake Concert Series C d. 1992, Dramatic Production of L' it Abner 1i APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 22 Refer to Ending Reports. Information only articles. 4. Policy on Pool Water Temperature Refer to memo dated November 4, 1992 from Elyce Kastigar, Recreation Supervisor for Aquatics and Fitness and attached letter dated October 16, 1992 I ,.. from Katherine Smith Lambert reported that in order to change water temperature in the pool 2-3 degrees takes 2-3 days. Kube-Harderwijk stated that lap swimmers wanted the water colder for their use. MOTION: Hilgeman motioned that the Commission adopt the City staff recommendation to keep the s water temperature in the pool at 83 degrees year round. Hube-Harderwijk seconded and the motion passed 7-0. D. Reports of Community Center Manager I i 1 . Report on Status of Community Center Addition Project Information only item. 2. Recommendation for Change in Skating Lesson Program National Affiliation Refer to memos dated October 26, 1992, and November 10, 1992 from Dave Black, Community Center Operations Supervisor. i Dave Black, Community Center Operations Supervisor, said that he recommended changing affiliations from USFSA (United States Figure Skating Association) to ISIA (Ice Skating Institute of America) . He said that the ISIA would better meet the needs of the Eden Prairie community because they offered a skill progression program geared toward recreation. Also, he said that their program divided group by age rather than skill so participants were more comfortable. fie felt that the needs of competitive '..,-. .. .. ..-. ....._ .. ."-.:.... ... ":..'.;. :A .. --. .. .......... .1.,...,a •w . ... .t.na....sl J.-..M...i 2. t..l.•. t.......• •ar.,.r.ru.ay.nr • 'f 'l r (APPROVED MINUTES EDEN PRAIRIE PARKS, REC. & NATURAL RESOURCES COMM. 11/16/92 23 skaters would be better- met with the USFSA's program of instruction offered by the Eden Prairie Figure Skating Club. MOTION: Richard, Chair, moved that the Skating Lesson Program's national affiliation be. changed from USFSA to ISIA on January 1, 1992, per Dave Black's recommendation. Lynch seconded the motion and the motion passed 7-0. VIII. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 11:15 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Susan Krebs Temporary Recording Secretary Jeane Thorne, Inc. I I