Loading...
Parks and Recreation - 12/06/2004 APPROVED MINUTES PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MONDAY, DECEMBER 6, 2004 7:00 P.M., CITY CENTER Council Chambers 8080 Mitchell Road COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Rob Barrett, Jeffrey Gerst, Tom Bierman, John Brill, Tom Crain, Cari Grayson, Randy Jacobus COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Ian Mackay and Michael Moriarity COMMISSION STAFF PRESENT: Bob Lambert, Director of Parks and Recreation; Stu Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources; Lyndell Frey, Adult Athletic Coordinator; Beth DeGree, Aquatics and Fitness Coordinator and Theresa Brundage, Recording Secretary STUDENT REPRESENTATIVES: Cole Johnson, Apoorva Shah and Roby Shrestha I. CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order by Chair Barrett at 7:00 p.m. II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Motion: Gerst moved, seconded by Jacobus, to approve the agenda as presented. The motion carried, 7-0. III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES —November 1, 2004 Motion: Motion was made by Grayson, seconded by Bierman, to approve the minutes as presented. The motion carried, 6-0-1 with Gerst abstaining because of absence from that meeting. IV. REPORT OF CITY COUNCIL ACTION—November 7 and November 21, 2004 Lambert reported that there were no Parks Commission motions at the November 7, 2004 Council meeting or the November 21, 2004 Council meeting. V. PETITIONS, REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATION A. PROPOSAL FOR CROSS COUNTRY SKI CROSSINGS AT STARING LAKE PARK—DOUG BOONSTRA PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 2 Lambert introduced Doug Boonstra, coach of the cross country ski team at Eden Prairie High School, who has a proposal for expanding the cross country ski trail at Staring Lake Park. Boonstra, 2602 Cloverfield Circle, Chaska, Nordic Ski coach at Eden Prairie High School, said he is also responsible for the trail grooming for the high school team. He said he has two concerns regarding denial of this request. He said he does not believe skiers would affect pedestrian traffic at the top of the sliding hill because the ski team practices from 3:30 to 4:45 p.m. and there are virtually no sledders on the hill at that time. He suggested keeping track of complaints from sledders. Boonstra said he also believes the top of the sledding hill would be less slippery if it were groomed for skiing. He said the concern about having an unsafe area for walkers to get down to the lake and conflict with walkers where the ski trail crosses the two paved sections did not seem valid to him. Boonstra said the loop around the amphitheatre could be used mostly for lessons and training purposes. He said he feels the proposed ski trail would not conflict with disc golf. Fox gave a historical perspective of the ski trails at Staring Lake Park. He said ski trails were started in the city in the 1980s, and showed a photo of the location of the existing and proposed trails at Staring Lake Park. Fox also showed the approach to the sledding hill and the proposed loop around the amphitheatre. He said the major concern of staff is the conflict among various users and currently the recommendation is to keep the skiers on the east end. Lambert pointed out that Boonstra said it would only be used by the cross country ski team from 3:30 to 4:45 p.m. and the reason for the trail is not to only accommodate the ski team,but accommodate all users. Lambert said wherever we put a trail, we would expect all users to be able to use it when the park is open and to direct a cross country ski trail across the top of a sliding hill is poor planning and staff strongly opposes that. Lambert said staff also opposes the loop around the amphitheatre because the average skier might be able to handle that but not those who are inexperienced. Lambert said if this is approved, he would ask Boonstra to follow the rules and keep his groomer on the area where the trails are approved and not extend trails on his own. He said people are sometimes aggressive about the use of public facilities without following the rules. He said he was surprised to hear Boonstra admit to this Commission that he extended the ski trail across the top of the sledding hill last year without authorization from the city. He is disappointed that Boonstra would do that after all of the efforts city staff have made to accommodate his requests. Lambert said another example of abuse of rules is the Minnesota Ski League advertising lessons at Staring Lake Park for January without having a permit to use the park. Boonstra said that without having the two 8-foot trail sections to cross the pavement sections, it would be virtually impossible to conduct races and training for competitive racers at Staring Lake Park. He said it is a perfect area for a high school race venue and PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 3 would be nice to use it. He suggested signage for the trail section that would cross the sledding hill. Boonstra said the reason the Minnesota Youth Ski League approached the city about waiving fees is because most cities do waive the fees. Will Whitmore, 16943 Candlelit Parkway, a junior at Eden Prairie High School and third year skier, spoke in favor of developing the trail for training purposes. He showed locations on the trail where races could begin. He said the amphitheatre hill is easier to negotiate than most. He praised Coach Boonstra for the effort he has put into the maintenance of the trail. Jacobus commented that he has been at the sledding hill on a Saturday afternoon and he does not see how skiers and sledders can be there at the same time. He asked what the hours are for the hill. Lambert said the park is open 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. and the trail would need to be a public trail. He said the sliding hill is closed when it's too icy or when there is not enough snow. Lambert said to design the trail to cross an area where there's another recreational use is poor planning and should not be done. He said as much as it makes for a good cross country ski trail, it makes for bad park use in that location. Shrestha asked if the meets would take place at the same time as practices. Boonstra said yes, they would. Lambert said there could be sledders there at the same time. Grayson asked if the Minnesota Youth Ski League has plans to go ahead with classes whether or not there are additions to the trail. Boonstra said yes, they are. Grayson asked if the additions are made, it would allow enough trail for a 5K race which would mean racers would continually be racing through the sledding area. Boonstra said yes, in the first 100 meters of the race. Grayson asked if adding the area around the amphitheatre would make the trail longer, not necessarily a conditioning thing. Boonstra said the purpose for that would be to provide a variety of terrain for a warm-up loop for high school skiers, for citizen skiers a shorter loop next to the start/finish area, and the Minnesota Youth Ski League would use it for instruction of downhill and uphill techniques. Grayson said it looks like the MYSL would be using that area in Sunday afternoons. Boonstra said they would be using the area around the amphitheatre and the ball field to the east of the parking lot. Grayson asked if the disc golf area is busy during winter. Lambert said he doesn't think it's busy at all,but it depends on weather conditions during winter. He said if there is little snow on the ground and a warm winter day, it could be used. Stu Fox commented that on the day he took the photos there were 14 cars in the parking lot from disc golf players. He said they are out there as much as they can and do use it throughout the winter. He said in snowless conditions they use it just about every day. Gerst asked if it's possible to groom the trail for a 5K race for a special occasion. Boonstra said it would mean shoveling snow onto the area where they need to cross so skiers wouldn't ski on pavement. PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 4 Bierman asked if Hennepin County Technical College would be a viable option for the skiers. Boonstra said there are trails there as well as a storage shed for the trail groomer. He said it got to be a problem for two reasons with the mild winter—to connect from that side of the park area to this side being discussed, you would have to either cross the lake that is not stable enough in December or drive on the paved walking trail which is tough on the snowmobile and groomer. So the best area for the storage facility is on the southwest side of Purgatory Creek and trail systems have been developed there already. He said the high school has a good relationship with the college. Bierman asked if Boonstra could work with the college to use the parking lot to expand in that area. Boonstra said he has not looked to that area because there was already an existing network at Staring Lake. Bierman asked if staff and Boonstra have tried to come up with options or alternatives. Lambert said the only option for having a meet or expanding this is using Staring Lake and that depends on thickness of the ice and snow conditions of the ice. He said the only feasible expansion of the trail is if the council wants to consider specifically taking action to close the disc golf course in the winter months or put another bridge across the creek. He said extending the course through the most active area of the park, although good for a cross country ski trail, is not good for the park. Barrett asked how many meets are held a year. Boonstra said one or two. Lambert said one or two this year could be 4-5 next year. He said it's just bad planning. He said several thousand dollars were just spent recreating the sliding hill and to basically cut people off at the top of the hill and put a racing course where they are lining up to use a sliding hill is not common sense. Jacobus asked if the issue is a continuous loop or just having a 5K. Boonstra said it's mainly having a 5K though one concern of the race is having start and finish areas fairly close to each other. Crain asked what the signage on those hills encompasses in terms of identifying difficulty level. Boonstra said there are caution and warning signs and the trail is designed for one- way traffic for the hill purposes. Jacobus asked how feasible the disc golf course suggestion is. Boonstra said without connecting, you would cut out the whole west end from the disc golf course to the west and you'd have to make up roughly one kilometer. Barrett asked if the lake was used last year. Boonstra said at the end of the year it was OK,but in terms of safety it's not the best place to ski. Bierman asked if permission were given for the disc golf area once or twice a year, would that provide an option for the high school. Boonstra said if a ski trail is going to be a race trail it needs to be a trail that is maintained through the year. Barrett asked if the one-time PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 5 use is then not realistic. Boonstra said pavement areas could be crossed because it's only eight feet,but creating almost an entire kilometer of trail would be extremely soft. Lambert said the original discussion with Boonstra was that they just need a place to practice and don't ever expect to have meets there. Lambert said this request does not make sense and he feels very strongly about it. He said he does not feel as strongly about the trail around the amphitheatre as he does about the trail across the sledding hill and the mixing of the users. Boonstra asked if there were complaints last year about skiers going across the top of the sledding hill. Lambert said no. Boonstra said if there are potential conflicts between sledders and skiers he would think he would have heard something. He suggested if there are complaints, maybe they can get a special use permit for races to be held between 3 and 4:30 p.m. and close a part of the sledding hill. Bierman said the school and the city have had a good working relationship in developing the trail,but the Commission's decision becomes precedent setting and we do have to think in the long term because other people will be using the area and it does become a public safety issue and we are inviting that kind of a problem. He said he would encourage Boonstra to think of other alternatives if this does get denied and continue to work with the city to see what else can be done. He said it needs to be considered that a precedent could be set by combining new usages in that particular part of the park. MOTION: Barrett moved, seconded by Grayson, to deny the request to expand the cross country ski trail at Staring Lake Park as shown on the Map of Requested Ski Trail Expansion as #1. It was clarified that this is a denial of a full-time permanent trail. Motion carried 7-0. MOTION: Barrett moved, seconded by Jacobus, to approve request to expand the cross country ski trail at Staring Lake Park as shown on the Map of Requested Ski Trail Expansion as #2 on a conditional one-year basis. Bierman said he is concerned that when we create something like this so visible in the park,he would like to be sure we're not creating either a liability or nuisance for non- team skiers. He suggested the city and Boonstra go out there together to take a look at it to decide if it's good or bad for the entire community of Eden Prairie. Bierman said he thinks it needs a little more study. Barrett said it seems to him that this would be utilizing an area of the park that isn't used highly. Fox said if this loop trail is created, signage would need to be put up for the age appropriateness of users of the trail because of the hill's steep level. He said what needs to be considered is whether it's one-way or two-way skiing or whether it's exclusive to lesson programs and high school. Lambert said whether the Commission approves this or not, if he goes out there and decides it is not safe, it will not happen. He said we will look at it again and if he can be convinced that it is safe and we just have to provide signage, we will do that,but if he thinks it is not a safe place for the average skier to ski, PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 6 we won't put it in. Lambert said there are all levels of skiers with many of them beginner skiers and if the trails are not signed there will be accidents and the city will be liable. Lambert said it sounds like there should be more signs on a couple other hills as well. Barrett said he is also concerned about different levels of skiers using the trail, crossing the paved trail twice and crossing the asphalt trails twice and he is not sure that's in the general interest of what we want to do. Motion carried 4-3 with Brill, Grayson and Bierman opposed. VI. OLD BUSINESS A. OFF-LEASH DOG EXERCISE AREAS Lambert said the off-leash recommendation goes back to a recommendation from staff from a November memorandum, and at that point he offered options for different tools for addressing people with dogs and allowing them to exercise dogs in the parks system. Lambert said he recognizes that having more dogs off leash in conservation areas on some of the trails that are remote from adjacent homes might or might not work. He said there are two things being brought up for discussion tonight: 1. asking the commission whether or not it makes sense to recommend to the City Council to change the ordinance to allow the Director of Parks and Recreation to designate certain areas where the leash law would not be in effect; and 2. considering the four areas to see if any of those make sense as off- leash dog areas. Libby Hargrove from the Off-leash Task Force distributed and read a letter written by the Co-founder and Executive Director of ROMP (Reasonable Owners of Mannerly Pets) in support of off-leash dog parks. Dana Brewer, 11845 Riverview Road, Off-leash Dog Park Committee representative, spoke about why a dog park is needed in Eden Prairie, essential elements of a successful dog park, and how the criteria is applied to the proposed sites listed in the November memo. She said more and higher density housing means smaller yards for pets, there are fewer land opportunities available and there are fewer children and more adults in the community. She said an off-leash park offers a social area, exercise and enjoyment of nature for people and their pets. Brewer said the Committee believes the following are essential components to make an off-leash dog area a success in Eden Prairie: adequate size with 5 or more usable acres to accommodate all dogs; water quality on the property; a fenced area; accessibility including parking; located a significant distance from residential areas; large level areas for gathering, training or playing; trees or shade; and ideally, amenities such as trash, water and restrooms. PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 7 She said the Committee looked at the proposed sites and applied the essential components. She said Cedar Hills seems to be an ideal site because it's a large area and available all year. Brewer said there are two key areas at this park where the city could put either a playground or off-leash area. She said the hockey rinks are being used for off-leash areas and the small dogs are enjoying their space. Brewer said the Flying Cloud space, once fenced, would allow only slightly over 1 acre of usable space and for small dogs only. She said the committee believes a voice control option will not work at any site. She said it would also be difficult to enforce the rules when dogs are off the leash and under voice control because the vast majority of dogs cannot be trusted to respond to voice control in an open area. Brewer said Westgate Conservation Area failed on many levels because there are very limited usable acres, the storm sewer runoff is stagnant, it's close to residential areas and parking possibilities could not be identified. In summary, Brewer said Cedar Hill, if it were reconfigured, might be a solution; and seasonal sharing of the skiing trails area of Staring Lake Park is another possibility but logistics would have to be worked out. Geri Napuck, 6447 Fritz Lane, spoke in favor of an off-leash dog area in Eden Prairie, but also believes in conservation areas designated as such by the city's guide plan. She stated she is an attorney and said she thinks the city is concerned about liability. She said if you have unleashed dogs in a conservation area without fencing, it is potentially a violation of state law. Napuck cited state statutes pertaining to protection of wild animals in conservation areas. She said the premise on a conservation area as they're designated on the city's guide plan is to provide a natural state of vegetation that does not harm or threaten that vegetation or wildlife habitat in the area. She said some of the protected animals are in these conservation areas and if an unleashed dog is loose and chases a protected animal, it is potentially a violation of state law. She said she thinks legally the city is putting itself at risk by having unleashed dogs in any conservation area so designated on the guide plan. Barrett asked if legally it would still be the same in a fenced dog park Napuck said it's the conservation area and designation by the city to protect it in a certain way as opposed to a park that is designated and used for recreational purposes. She said this is a situation where you have the surrounding of the habitat in conservation areas that are not used for anything other than a conservation area. Lambert said he thinks wildlife in a park would be just as traumatized as it is in a conservation area and we have to have the same concerns as to what that park is and what will change if we fence it or let dogs run off leash. He said it would end up being the same result for the animals that live there. Napuck said she disagrees because there is no other place to put an off-leash dog park other than on park property in Eden Prairie. She said a conservation area is designated that way by the city which is different than its designation of certain acreage as parkland; it's defined differently and managed differently. She said a PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 8 conservation area is designated so as to maintain its natural state. She said the safest way to have an off-leash area is to have a fenced area so that reasonable precautions can be taken in an area designated for recreational purposes. Jeff Strate, 15021 Summerhill Dr., spoke in opposition of an off-leash dog area in conservation areas. He said dogs off leash tend to exhibit hunting instincts and wildlife needs a certain number of acres in order to survive in conservation areas. He said forested areas are fragmented with less and less places for wildlife to go and urged the city, as an option, to look at the BFI landfill site and city parks that do not have conservation area designation. Hargrove said her dogs cohabitate well with wildlife on her property and she said she does not find dogs to be an incongruous mix with wildlife. She said the Three Rivers Park Preserve provides habitat for wildlife and areas for people. She said the Committee has looked at other areas in the community and said she wishes the Commission would look at and think about Cedar Hills which might solve the need for an off-leash area. She said BFI no longer owns the land at the location mentioned earlier, the state does. She asked if there is a place that hasn't been thought about. Cheryl Loose, 12623 Sunnybrook Road,pointed out that Three Rivers Bryant Park is for all users, on the Minnetonka/Eden Prairie border, costs $30 per year and has disc golf. She encouraged the Commission to walk the places that they're not familiar with. Bill Satterness, 8597 Red Oak Dr., encouraged the Commission to reaffirm the commitment to keep the conservation areas for conservation and not build fences for the dog park and not allow dogs to run there. He said conservation areas should be off limits to off-leash dog areas. Lambert said he won't be recommending off-leash dog exercise unfenced areas in conservation areas anymore, but we still have to find someplace for fenced off-leash areas in Eden Prairie. He said he has talked to the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, overseer of the BFI site, and they indicated there is a gas company there that has a 15-year contract with an optional 5-year extension and as long as that company is getting usable methane gas there, the site won't be available to the public. He said at some time in the future, there is 120-160 acres there that will be available and off-leash dog use could be considered at that time. Lambert said an area that he thinks should be looked at is the east side of Staring Lake in an area 4-5 acres south of the creek. He said he'd be interested in hearing about other areas in the park system as well. He said we have to back off the idea of 15-20 acres and actually think about what's feasible and keep working at it to eventually find additional sites. He said if we look at the demand for this and the use of these areas, we have to try to accommodate it. PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 9 Crain asked about the Bryant Lake site. Lambert said it's a 10-acres site and it is recommended for approval next year with hopes that it be usable by the end of next summer. Lambert said the only way to have successful off-leash dog areas is to have a system that accommodates a variety of types, sizes and sites in several locations. He stated he is withdrawing his recommendation and recommending a review of the Staring Lake site. MOTION: Gerst moved, seconded by Grayson, to recommend that staff look into new alternatives, including the Staring Lake site, for off-leash dog areas. Motion carried 7-0. VII. NEW BUSINESS A. REQUEST TO LIGHT SOFTBALL FIELD#4 AT ROUND LAKE PARK Fox said staff is looking to light this softball field at Round Lake because of the increase in adult softball leagues and also because there is potential for future expansion at the Community Center which would cause removal of Fields 5 and 6 north of Valley View Road. He said by lighting Field 4, it would provide a field for additional games. Bierman asked if the other fields are lit in that area. Fox said Fields 2 and 3 are lit and 1 and 4 are not. He said electrical hookup at Field 4 is readily available. MOTION: Brill moved, seconded by Grayson, to authorize staff to invite adjacent owners to the January 3, 2005 Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission Meeting to discuss a proposed lighting of softball field#4 at Round Lake Park in the spring of 2005. Bierman asked that the motion include notice to residents that there is a curfew for the lights and they will be turned off at 10 p.m. Motion carried 7-0. VIII. REPORTS OF STAFF A. DIRECTOR OF PARKS AND RECREATION SERVICES 1. RealLife Stairs/Trail Access Lambert said per the developer's agreement, the RealLife Cooperative was supposed to build a trail access from the development to the trail around Smetana Lake and the developer never did it because he said the property owners did not want it. Lambert said 40-some people wanted the trail access but the Board of Directors of the Cooperative did not. He said the Cooperative requested a license for gardens on public property and the city said it would allow that provided the public be allowed to access those gardens, with the access being provided by the trail. Lambert said the city then told the Cooperative that their Board of Directors needed to vote unanimously to have no trail and if they did that,provide the city with an easement from the parking lot back PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 10 to the gardens so the public still has access. He said the Cooperative took action with a 7-0 vote for no trail access. Lambert said he does not think this is a good thing,but he can't in good faith make a recommendation to the City Council to justify the trail access to a group of people who say they don't want the access. Fox noted that the city regularly requires developments to provide different types of access and this was a requirement of the developer's agreement. He said what the residents ended up doing was putting in paver stones down the hill to provide access. 2. Status of Sports Facilities Committee (This item was heard following Item V.A.) Lambert said this is a notice to keep the Commission informed of where we are with this. He said the six sports that use outside facilities met at their annual fall meeting and all received a copy of the Park Use Policy and the Sports Facilities Committee Charter Statement. He said representatives from the associations who attended the meeting strongly endorsed the idea of the Committee but had no comments on the Priority Use Policy because they hadn't yet read it. He said they were notified that they have until January 10, 2005 to review it and get input from their boards. He said on January 10, they will bring recommendations to the first meeting of the Sports Facilities Committee and they will work to arrive at language that will accommodate all associations. He said once the Priority Use Policy is agreed upon, it will be brought to the Parks Commission for review and forward to the City Council for final approval. Mark Davis, 2487 Crown Hill Road, Minnetonka, said he understood the last meeting was for field groups only so he did not attend. He said he was left with the impression that the changes that change the policy for skating and swim teams were going to be stricken and then go forward with a discussion,but not with a policy that was put in place that suggested there has already been a change. He said this policy that's been put out now already says there is a major change and there's only two youth athletic organizations in the city that have a major change as addressed in#2 on the policy and was not black lined to show the change, it was simply written and then sent out. He said it suggested that no longer does the one club with the highest number of prior use get whatever time they want, it allocates X percent to the top priority team and X percent to the second priority team. Davis said he is asking that the Commission strike the changes that were made and let us go forward on the basis of having a discussion,but not something that implies that a change has already been made. Lambert said this Commission did make recommendations for changes to the policy that was going to be considered. He said on this particular one, we talked about this is how we deal with all our other organizations. He said if we dealt with it and said only the top one gets it all, we wouldn't have lacrosse today. He said the changes that the Commission agreed upon is what was PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION December 6, 2004 Page 11 given and he would not recommend going back to the original one and trying to have that group work through all things that were already agreed on. Davis said the highlights of the discussion were not lined and the only major provision that changed affects swimming and skating and he does not think that is fair. Lambert said it does not only affect swimming and skating, it affects all field users as well. Lambert said the language is not directed to only swimming and skating; it is fields, ice or pool and if it does not say that, it should. Bierman said he looks at this as establishing guidelines and just a way to have meaningful conversation. Lambert said Davis does have a point and the discussion was that it has to be the same across the board. He apologized to Davis and said it was supposed to be language that covers everybody. It was agreed to create a separate bullet point on this and change the language to be all inclusive. B. MANAGER OF RECREATION SERVICES C. MANAGER OF PARKS AND NATURAL RESORUCES IX. ADJOURNMENT Motion: Gertz moved, Jacobus seconded, to adjourn the meeting. The motion carried 7-0. The meeting was adjourned at 10:18 p.m.