Planning Commission - 12/09/2002 APPROVED MINUTES
EDEN PRAIRIE COMMUNITY PLANNING BOARD
MONDAY, DECEMBER 9, 2002 7:00 P.M., CITY CENTER
Council Chambers
8080 Mitchell Road
BOARD MEMBERS: Ken Brooks, Frantz Corneille, Randy Foote,
Vicki Koenig, Fred Seymour, Kathy Nelson,
Dave Steppat, Ray Stoelting, Paul Sodt.
STAFF MEMBERS: Stu Fox, Manager of Parks and Natural Resources
Mike Franzen, City Planner
Al Gray, City Engineer
Jane Hovind, Recording Secretary
I. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE—ROLL CALL
Chair Corneille called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Present: Chair Corneille,
Commissioners Foote, Koenig, Nelson, Sodt, Steppat, and Stoelting. Absent: Brooks,
Seymour,
II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Stodt, second by Koenig to approve the agenda. Motion carried, 7-0.
III. MINUTES
A. Minutes of the November 25, 2002 Community Planning Board Meeting
Foote stated that on page four, the sixth paragraph,it should be reworded "Foote
asked what are the limitations of the BFI property."
Sodt said that on page four, ninth paragraph, second sentence, it should read "He
indicated he understood there are more golf courses in Minnesota than we need."
He referred to the first paragraph on page six. The last two sentences should read:
"The peak demand is only four to five months per year. The question is how far the
City should go when providing facilities when they are only used for short peak
times."
He continued that under Members Reports it should read "When he lived in
Bloomington it was reported there were homeless people and this may hold true for
Eden Prairie."
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December 9, 2002
Page 2
MOTION by Sodt, second by Stoelting, to approve the minutes of the November
25, 2002 Community Planning Board Meeting. Motion carried, 7-0.
IV. PUBLIC MEETINGS
IV. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. EDEN PRAIRIE CENTER LOTH ADDITION . By General Growth. Request
for Planned Unit Development Review on 41.3 acres, Zoning Amendment in C-
Regional District on 41.3 acres, and Preliminary Plat of 41.3 acres into 2 lots.
Location: Eden Prairie Mall
Franzen stated Von Maur is asking for a lot split to create a second lot, similar to
Sears, Kohls and Mervyns. Staff recommends approval.
Stodt stated that the lot line runs through the middle of the parking ramp.
Mike Franzen, City Planner, responded that each lot must have a certain number
of spaces according to private agreements between General Growth and each lot
owner. The City staff is only concerned with total parking at Eden Prairie Center
which meets City Code. There are cross parking agreements so it doesn't matter
so much where the lot line is.
Foote asked what the reason was for the split. Franzen responded it was for tax
and mortgage purposes.
MOTION by Koenig, second by Stoelting to close the public hearing. Motion
carried, 7-0.
MOTION by Stoelting, second by Nelson, to approve the request by General
Growth for a Planned Unit Development Review on 41.3 acres, Zoning
Amendment in C-Regional District on 41.3 acres, and Preliminary Plat of 41.3
acres into 2 lots. Motion carried, 7-0.
V. INFORMATIONAL MEETINGS
A. WILLAMS, SIMCHUCK, HEIN, MODERN TIRE PROPERTIES
INFORMATIONAL MEETING Location: East of Highway 212, South of
Anderson Lakes Parkway, and north of Sunnybrook Road.
Dan Herbst of Pemtom talked about the history of the property. He stated the
property is located south of Anderson Lakes Parkway, west of Homeward Hills
Road, north of Sunnybrook Road and east of Highway 212. It consists of
approximately 44.7acres which include a low swale, a major wetland to the east,
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December 9, 2002
Page 3
and a small wetland to the southeast. The property rises above residents in the
southeast and south which will be utilized as a privacy buffer. The principal
streets within the development include Aztec Drive, Darnel Road, Princeton
Avenue, Dartmouth Avenue, and Cold Stream Lane. The original plans for the
property were for a single family/townhouse neighborhood utilizing the existing
roads and utility points of Darnel, Princeton, Dartmouth and Cold Stream. With
the plans to connect the development with College View Drive and the
subsequent purchase of additional land to allow for right-of-way, there has been a
modification of the original plan. He said that 20% of the property will be
developed with homes, the remaining 80% will be undeveloped and consist of
open space and right-of-way.
Herbst stated he reviewed the Eden Prairie demographic information which
indicates there is an aging population in Eden Prairie, 28% of the residents are in
the 45-65 age group. This age group wants a smaller, maintenance free home and
there is a limited supply of this type of housing product in Eden Prairie.
Herbst said that he met with Park and Recreation staff and it appears that there are
existing park facilities in this location. The plan accommodates the pedestrian
system by connecting all of the sidewalks. Public and private open space also.
Herbst described the project as including 113 Active Adult single family homes
and a cluster of five-12 unit condominium buildings along Highway 212. The
single family homes will range from 1,400 to 1,840 square feet and have a starting
price of $350,000. The townhomes range from 1,100-1,500 square feet with a
starting price of $170,000. There will be covenants that will control outside
storage, fencing and accessory structures. An association will be in place for
exterior maintenance and upkeep. He stated he is working with engineering to
approve signalization and accommodate in and out traffic on Highview and 212.
Almost 10.6 acres will be common open space which is almost 24 percent of the
site.
Herbst summarized his presentation by stating the transition from a planning point
of view is perfect with high density on the highway and lower density deeper into
the site. There is a limited supply of this type of housing available and this
development will fill a market. There are generous open spaces, the housing is
low profile for the neighborhood. Single professionals and empty nesters living
in these homes will generate less traffic. There will be covenants in place which
will not allow storage of vehicles, no fences, etc. Each lot will be unique so that
the homes are not repetitive.
Franzen stated that when there is a proposed guide plan change, it's important to
hold two meetings — a neighborhood meeting between the developer and the
neighborhood as an introduction to the project and an informational meeting for
the neighborhood to give feedback to the Community Planning Board and staff.
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December 9, 2002
Page 4
Franzen added that the staff report has two alternatives including the guide plan
and the proposed plan, but this does not mean there are only two choices. There
are numerous ways this site can develop as a balance between city, neighborhood
and developer expectations. The next step in the process would be public hearings
when everyone will get a chance to review project details such as utilities,
landscaping and lot sizes.
Al Gray, City Engineer, discussed the traffic evaluation. He stated that in the
traffic study, there is an assumption that a certain amount of traffic will be
generated per unit. In order to consider the highest potential traffic levels, the
Active Adult single family homes are treated as single family homes with more
trips per unit. Three distinct residential neighborhoods abut the property. They
were designed with the intent for their roads to eventually connect to this new
neighborhood. When looking at the estimated traffic volumes in the future, the
connection to College View Drive that connects out to 212 is the key area where
traffic will access the property. If that connection didn't exist, all the traffic
would have to go through the existing neighborhoods. If the townhomes weren't
there and it was developed as office, there would be a difference in traffic,
probably more traffic than the townhome element. When the project is fully
developed, there will be approximately 1600 trips per day at the signalized
intersection on 212. At the westerly Darnel intersection, 900 trips per day. In the
north approximately 990 trips per day. When considering trips, they are counted
as a trip is leaving, another trip is returning.
Existing residents will utilize various sections depending on where they're
headed. This street network has been planned for some time. With the
connection of streets, there will be more alternatives for people in this area.
Another important consideration is access for emergency vehicles. Also bus
routes and how they're planned, how easily they can get from one neighborhood
to another. For those reasons, interconnected streets work well.
Corneille opened discussion to public input.
Marc Schwartz of 9303 Cold Stream Lane, stated he was speaking for many of his
neighbors. He said their primary concern included impact on quality life and
safety due to increased traffic flow. It is clear that new residents and existing will
use Darnel and all other streets including 212 to reach other locations. It's
important to consider the cumulative impact. The proposed connection of Darnel
to Cold Stream will be a connection that will be an overflow route for traffic.
Many residents have young families that wander into the street. There are
concerns regarding young children walking to the bus. Unsafe traffic flow during
construction — cars and trucks of various sizes. These drivers contribute to traffic
flow and exceed speed. A secondary concern is density of the development.
Surrounding lots are significantly larger and in some cases twice as large. This is
a concern as to impact on property values. To address these issues the residents
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December 9, 2002
Page 5
would like to propose altering the layout to design a widened roadway, inbound
outbound turn lanes and lights. This would help to mitigate the traffic situation.
Another option might be a horseshoe loop which would prevent increased traffic.
They would like to see multiple cul-de-sacs and generous landscaping.
Steppat asked if he was representing the neighborhood
Schwartz stated had met with a number of neighbors and he's representing them.
Molly Stoffel of 9293 Dartmouth Avenue stated that traffic is an issue. She stated
that the neighborhood is here to address concept and content of what goes into the
plan. They are aware the land was going to be developed and they want 212
access. The multiple housing is fine near 212. There concern is that the plan was
so far away from what the neighborhood wanted. They were looking at bringing
the neighborhoods together and they hoped the development would tie all the
neighborhoods together. The plan as presented will not provide that. She stated
they were concerned that this development would fit well with the surrounding
developments. They had hoped for a central park with extensive walking trails
throughout the development. The current proposal stated that it's not an attractive
project for children. There are many young children in these neighborhoods and
they were hoping for homes with young families. In addition, the lots are too
small in comparison to existing lots which are a minimum of 13,500 square feet.
The residents want smooth blended transitions between neighborhoods, not
boulders, bushes or monuments.
Lee Smith of 9231 Cold Stream Lane stated that roads in this development could
be set up as cul-de-sacs. The access off of 212 would take care of many of the
concerns of the neighborhood. This one entrance would be sufficient for
emergency vehicles.
Eric Falkenstein of 9300 Cold Stream Lane stated that the introduction of lower
priced townhomes really will affect property values. The issue concerns the
characteristics of the neighborhood and how it affects existing neighborhoods. It
all relates to property value and if you live next door to a property worth less than
your house it brings property value down.
Libby Hargrove of 12640 Sunnybrook Road stated traffic and density are the
concerns. They expected a development with less density. With more density this
means increases in traffic. She stated the neighbors thought Pemtom would tweak
the proposal after the neighborhood meeting input but they didn't.
Doug Schluter of 8936 Darnel Road stated he was unclear as to the development's
access onto 212. He asked if the Lindeman property had been closed on and
whether there would be other hurdles to overcome. He said traffic density is the
main problem. Would like to know what the numbers will actually be with this
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December 9, 2002
Page 6
development not what the current rates are. He stated he had suggested utilizing a
cul-de-sac approach off of Darnel. He said it seemed to be a suitable spot for a
cul-de-sac. He mentioned several developments that are relatively new and have
one access in and one out. They include Riley Creek, Settlers Ridge, Stonegate,
Timberlake Road, and Bear Path. The neighbors are concerned about the
development of the Eden Prairie Mall which would bring more people through
their neighborhoods to get there. He said he believed there are solutions to the
traffic situation and the idea of using cul-de-sacs and closing off the Darnel, Cold
Stream and Dartmouth areas would be a doable solution.
Paul Dunn of 8913 Darnel said the central themes are density and traffic. He
expressed his frustration with Pemtom since there have not been any
modifications of the original proposal. He stated there are three concerns:
location, traffic patterns, and financial implications. In regard to location, the area
is not appropriate for high density. There are several high density developments
within a two mile radius. He said there are three distinct neighborhoods and the
remaining land needs to be developed in such a way to bring all the
neighborhoods together. Pemtom's original design was single family. There isn't
any validity to the Pemtom statistics which say traffic would be less. Traffic is a
real concern. The financial implications according to Pemtom will generate great
revenue. Cutting it in half would not hurt the City. Single family homes would tie
the neighborhood together better. In conclusion, the residents want family homes
with children and want Pemtom to listen to them.
Dana Kulics of 9195 Dartmouth Avenue said she was very disappointed to see
that the comments the neighbors made at the neighborhood meeting were not
taken into consideration by Pemtom. They asked for a transitional neighborhood,
some higher priced homes equal to those along the perimeter and placement of the
other homes in the center of the neighborhood.
Corneille summarized the residents concerns. They include traffic flow and
safety. Single ingress, egress, cul-de-sacs, access to 212 and Aztec Drive.
Density and lack of cohesiveness within the neighborhood. Impact on home
values is another issue, along with quality of the neighborhood.
Stoelting asked Al Gray to respond to comments made by the residents. Gray
stated that he wanted to clarify that the numbers he quoted were not additional
amounts of traffic but total amounts including the existing neighborhood and the
new areas. The connection to 212 will be signalized with protective turn lanes and
a two lane approach. This will result in good traffic access in and out. The City
will acquire the right-of-way through the Lindeman property. A development
agreement is in effect that allows for that right-of-way for a roadway. In looking
at the history of Eden Prairie there have been a lot of roads that required a right-
of-way. While some older neighborhoods have single access, the City now plans
neighborhoods with multiple access. Riley Creek, Settlers Ridge and Stonegate
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December 9, 2002
Page 7
have or will have additional access. Bear Path has an emergency access for its
private street system. Snow plowing is more difficult and as a consequence the
City does not allow unnecessary cul-de-sacs. He said there is a belief that a cul-
de-sac will result in higher property values. Whether that's true or not most
people don't live on cul-de-sacs. Trying to create cul-de-sacs doesn't allow for a
flexible system. The fewer streets that go through, the higher the volume of traffic
other streets must carry. The more street connections, the lower the volume.
Another consideration is public safety and how emergency vehicles will access
the development. Having several connections through can be valuable for safety.
A resident from the neighborhood suggested a connection at Aztec Drive as an
alternative with an S curve built into the road to slow people down. With the
connection to 212 and Aztec, this would provide two accesses to the
neighborhood with the least impact.
Gray responded that there are other alternatives. He disagreed that it would
provide the same overall benefits. The kind of traffic numbers that the
development would generate are reasonable. They're different and larger than
what exists currently but they are consistent with traffic counts in other areas of
the city.
Anthony Swanson of 9237 Dartmouth asked if the traffic study could be made
available to residents. Gray responded that it was. Mr. Swanson said he was
concerned that over half of the new development would travel through the
Princeton-Dartmouth area which would increase traffic in a small area.
A resident disputed that a great deal of the traffic will go out on 212. He felt the
volume of traffic will be dumped into a very quiet neighborhood. This short cut
from Anderson Lake and 212 will impact the neighborhood.
Jill Larson of 8981 Darnel Road stated that they live on the corner and she
believes there is a major concern for substantially increased traffic numbers.
Molly Stoffel stated that the residents want a community park in the
neighborhood and it may not come with this development. She's hopeful that the
existing park will be expanded.
Stu Fox, Manager of Park and Natural Resources, stated that residents would like
a park as close to their homes as possible. In this development there are two parks
within half mile walking distance. Creekwood Park has remained undeveloped
and now that development is coming in there, the City will make improvements.
These improvements are predicated by the neighbors coming forward and saying
what they would like and, if appropriate, the City will make changes. Fox stated
that when a development is proposed, the City has the latitude to take land in lieu
of park fees. Many parks don't work and function as neighborhood parks. They
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December 9, 2002
Page 8
run between 8 and 20 acres in size. Rather than adding another park it would be
better to spend dollars developing the existing parks. In this case, the City would
look at cash park fees to help improve the existing parks.
Nelson asked Gray if the traffic study took into consideration traffic coming off
212. She stated that it seemed a large amount of traffic will pass through the
neighborhoods to avoid the signal.
Gray responded that the traffic study took this into account. Traffic avoiding the
signal would be entering southbound on 212. Since that's a protected left turn,
traffic can only make a turn with a green arrow. North bound traffic could make a
turn in but most of the traffic cuts off on Pioneer and goes over to Homeward
Hills.
Nelson stated that she is concerned about increased traffic near the grade school.
She asked why the road connection doesn't go to Aztec instead of Darnel. She
stated her concern that the streets will not result in the best traffic patterns. The
Aztec area has a better site-line from Anderson Lake Parkway. She said that
Darnel is not a straight street and these are not streets that would appear to be
particularly good streets to add additional traffic onto. The streets taking more
traffic are generally straight meandering streets. She questioned why the streets
were built this way if they were planned to go through. She also questioned lot
sizes and setbacks.
Franzen stated since the plan is very preliminary and this is an informational
meeting, lot sizes have not been finalized. The points of discussion at this level
are traffic, roads, and density. The plans show 6,600 square foot lots.
Nelson said another important issue was that wetland be set aside. She stated that
the developer is required to leave the wetland in its current state. There doesn't
seem to be much transition into the neighborhood. A possibility would be a
circular road of more houses or a development that wouldn't have as much traffic
moving in and out.
Foote asked Gray what the traffic numbers were for Evener Way or Dell Road.
Gray stated that Evener Way is at 2,000 per day, Hames Way is 3,000, and
Heritage Road would be higher. He said all of them would be much higher than
any street in this neighborhood. From a livability standpoint, a reasonable traffic
volume is 1,500 — 2,000 vehicles and for these neighborhoods we would like to
stay below that range. One street in this proposal would push up close to 1,000, if
a single family rate is achieved. Estimate of new development would produce an
additional 1,400 trips per day. Most of the traffic goes out to 212. Darnel was
designed as a connector street. The City looks at the traffic study to see if there
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December 9, 2002
Page 9
are traffic volumes that are out of the ordinary. All estimates are within the
parameter of acceptable traffic volumes.
Frantz asked about the possibility of connection with Aztec Drive.
Gray stated they looked at Aztec Drive as an alternative connection but College
View is a much better connection. Could look at other options by eliminating the
Darnel connection. One of the problems with the Aztec alternative would be the
connection of commercial and residential areas.
Sodt asked about Aztec and Anderson Lake Parkway as access what about the
close proximity. Aztec Drive at Anderson Lake would be challenged by the
amount of traffic generated in that area.
Steppat stated that neighbors seem concerned about lifestyle and the development
being different physically, different home values, lot sizes and designs. It's not
going to look the same as the current neighborhood and may affect property
values. Also that the lifestyle of the neighborhood will be affected because the
social patterns of these new homes would be different than them.
A resident stated that the neighborhoods are all different and they had hoped this
development would tie all of them together.
Stoelting asked what the Guide Plan says about this property. He questioned what
benefit the variances and waivers would provide with this project.
Franzen responded most of the property is low density which is units per acre
which could be single family or multi-family and doesn't refer to size of lots. The
Guide Plan has two purposes. The first is the big picture which looks at traffic and
growth, sewer, water, electric and gas needs for the entire city. The second is the
use of the land and how it fits in with wetlands, trees and neighborhoods. While
2.5 units per acre is the theoretical cap, lot size, traffic, trees and transition
determine the actual density. When considering the waivers we look for
compelling reasons that would benefit the City. For example, it may satisfy a city
need for affordable and market rate senior housing or to preserve trees and
wetlands.
Franzen added the tree inventory, wetlands and drainage impacts haven't been
reviewed.
Stoelting asked if Herbst would look at other alternatives to transition to existing
neighborhoods, consider a smaller amount of cluster housing development. He
could provide different alternatives to discuss at future meetings. Herbst indicated
he would be open to that.
Planning Board Minutes
December 9, 2002
Page 10
Koenig stated that she's very excited about the homes but thinks the density is a
little high. She stated she considered this a positive addition to the City. She
questioned whether if part of this property is zoned industrial would this be made
residential. Also, if the developer could accommodate the neighbors by
transitioning with a traditional lot with a single family home that would be
transitioned along the neighborhood, although this would mean more density
along 212.
Nelson stated that she's not convinced that someone would want to buy a smaller
home on a smaller lot for the same price as a larger home. It's possible if it's an
older age group with kids not moving home. She suggested building larger homes
with some transition that could be a variety of homes for senior age groups who
may not want to trade down in size. If it's not restricted to children, why wouldn't
someone buy one even if they have small children. Eden Prairie is children
friendly and there's a need to build homes for children to fit into. Why can't this
be made so kids can move into it. This isn't affordable housing. The concept
target group is a problem for the neighborhood.
Sodt stated that he's in that situation moving into a smaller home exactly as
discussed here. He said there isn't enough information at this time to make
decisions until a more detailed development is brought in. He would be interested
in what rationale that there is for granting variances.
Koenig stated that prices seem high but she believes that the market needs this.
There will be professionals, families, widowed people.
Kevin Kulics of 9195 Dartmouth Avenue believes that what the neighborhood is
looking for is a transitional neighborhood with a single access out to 212 like
Settlers Ridge. There's no benefit to the neighborhood for the streets to connect.
A single access if developed correctly could handle traffic out to 212.
Herbst responded that associations and covenants are consumer driven. It's the
consumer that tells us that they like neighborhoods that are architecturally
controlled. Consumers value entrances which may not be appealing to this
neighborhood but they identify the area. The covenants have been tweaked by
what consumers tell us. Associations become social connectors instituting web
pages, babysitting, etc. They are a positive for neighborhood get-togethers.
Throughout this meeting he has heard residents voice three main concerns, traffic,
home values and visual. The product is a low-profile. Settlers Ridge started with
townhomes then single family homes across from them which are selling for $1.5
million. Lifestyle homes are in demand. Settlers Ridge and Bear Path were very
popular when they were introduced. People who own more than one home would
find this product ideal. In Settlers Ridge the homes start at $300,000 and top out
at$750,000. Values will appreciate very well with this type of home. He stated he
is trying to bring to the City and neighborhood a product that works. The
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December 9, 2002
Page 11
original plan included a cluster of townhomes through there with single family
homes on the east side. The City did the right thing in presenting a conservative
traffic study. The average is 9.7 trips per day for a single family home. The
actual traffic counts in Settlers Ridge for this type of home were 4.7 trips. If the
original plan were being considered, it would generate substantially more trips.
There are no guarantees that only one type of family would be moving in. The
target market is for 55 — 65 year olds who want a single story house with minimal
upkeep. He said he would like to generate as little traffic as possible, and would
like to create a neighborhood that is visually pleasing.
A resident mentioned an association that residents belong to. It makes sure to
keep common areas mowed. The association has no leverage to prevent people
from doing whatever they want. She stated that she redrew the plan with a
connection at Aztec Drive.
Another resident stated that the developer keeps talking about benefits of these
homes. He asked whether there were other homes in Eden Prairie similar to these
proposed.
Herbst replied that there are 48 life style homes in Bear Path and 47 in Settlers
Ridge.
A resident of 9423 Cold Stream Lane stated that three of the existing homes will
be abutting six of the proposed houses in one area. This is a transition that won't
work. The developer is ignoring the neighbors concerns. Opening this
neighborhood up to 212 and Pioneer Trail will result in huge numbers of cars
coming through the neighborhoods. He would like to see more cul de-sacs.
Corneille stated that he believed the developer was listening to their concerns and
will come back with their input considered. He stated the market indicates a need
for this type of housing in the community. The question is how to do it and where
it should go.
Franzen stated the developer could come back with changes at another
informational meeting or have a public hearing which will include all the detailed
plans and plan changes. All residents previously notified will receive notices
again for the public hearing.
VI. MEMBERS REPORTS
VII. CONTINUING BUSINESS
VIII. NEW BUSINESS
IX. PLANNERS'REPORTS
Planning Board Minutes
December 9, 2002
Page 12
Franzen stated that there are no scheduled workshops or board meetings during Christmas
week. The next official meeting will be January 13, 2003.
X. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Stoelting, second by Koenig to adjourn. Motion carried, 8-0.
There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at 9:55 p.m.