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HomeMy WebLinkAboutFlying Cloud Airport Advisory Commission - 11/13/2014 APPROVED MINUTES FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 2014 7:00 P.M. Fire Station#1 14800 Scenic Heights Rd. COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair Jeff Larsen; Vice-Chair Keith Tschohl; Commissioners: Caryl Hansen, Benjamin McQuillan, Joseph Sutila and Mike Wilson COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Jay Erwin STUDENT REPRESENTATIVES: Britta Carlsen (absent), Brian Gilje STAFF: George Esbensen, Fire Chief; Jan Curielli, City Recorder VISITORS: Chris Cooper, Hummingbird Aviation; Bill Halpin; Luther Johnson; Jennifer Lewis, MAC; Shelly & Brian Nelson; Greg Proulx; Gary Schmidt, MAC; Jim Shadduck, FCM Tower Manager I. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL Chair Larsen called the meeting to order at 7:00 PM. He asked the Commission members to introduce themselves to the members of the audience. III. PUBLIC COMMENT - Helicopter Operations comments by Residents (Taken out of sequence) Larsen introduced Shelly Nelson, noting she had called Fire Chief Esbensen about the helicopter operations. Shelly Nelson, a 22 year resident of Eden Prairie, said she moved in knowing she was 0.6 miles from the airport. She was part of the group that attended a Commission meeting two years ago to protest the helicopter noise. She said the problem is Hummingbird Aviation and the helicopter training they provide. Larsen asked if the problem is with the frequency of the flights. Nelson replied the primary issue is their training after dark when they circle her home every two-three minutes until 11:00 PM. She believes that is unreasonable and she should not be subjected to that. The other issue is the flight pattern and constancy of flights in the summer that cause an undue burden on the neighborhood. They were forced to leave their home at times. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 2 Tschohl asked if there were any other helicopter operations that were of concern to the Nelsons. Brian Nelson said there are flights by news helicopters, mosquito spraying helicopters and LifeLink helicopters as well, but the Hummingbird helicopters are on the pattern they live in and their flights are continuous any time of the day. Ms Nelson noted after she talked to Jennifer Lewis and Mike Wilson there have been some changes made. Tschohl said he attended the first of two noise abatement meetings with Ms Lewis and Mr. Cooper, the owner of Hummingbird Aviation, where they reviewed the flight paths. Some of the patterns were extending east of the SuperAmerica station over the Nelson's neighborhood. At the meeting they reviewed the agreement with the Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) and the airport control tower that was developed a few years ago and also discussed new flight patterns that would turn further west of Flying Cloud Drive and Pioneer Trail. Jennifer Lewis, representing the MAC, said there was discussion in 2010 about some activity by a little red helicopter. That operator worked with the MAC and the tower manager to develop and publish a strategy to keep helicopter operations closer into the airport. She noted it is sometimes difficult for them to match up what is a helicopter and what is an airplane, although they are seeing fewer helicopter operations now compared to 2010. In the recent meetings they discussed possible ways to tweak the procedures for helicopter training, and she believed Mr. Cooper was going to try out some of those suggestions. She said they have another meeting scheduled to discuss helicopter operations. They meet with the pilots two times a year and communicate very specific things to alleviate concerns about operating less at night, operating higher and operating less in residential areas. Luther Johnson, 9524 Woodridge Circle, noted the 2010 agreement has recommended flight tracks, none of which cross Flying Cloud Drive. He asked if they are in violation of the agreement if they go beyond that point. Lewis replied those are the recommended procedures. Chris Cooper, owner/operator of Hummingbird Aviation, said he and his wife have operated Hummingbird Aviation in Eden Prairie since 2004. Their flight school is the only school in the area that works with helicopters. They have been very active in working with the airport and the surrounding community to specifically address noise and noise mitigation. He was actively involved in establishing the process in 2010 and continues to operate under those rules. They made some updates to some of the flight tracks based on some changes that have occurred at the airport. The changes to the airport resulted in their losing one of two helicopter practice areas. The current practice area on the south side of the airport is about 1/3 the size of the previous area. They try to keep the noise as close to the airport as possible;however they are subject to the control of the tower and must blend in with other traffic. Even though they have the flight patterns, there are times it is not practical to use them. They have talked to the instructors, the pilots and customers to educate them about the noise abatement procedures to minimize the impact on the neighborhood. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 3 Wilson said during their meeting they discussed the fact the development on the west end of the airport was not there when the patterns were originated. They are trying to limit the noise, tighten everything up and land a little further down the runway if possible, although it is dependent on traffic. Larsen asked Mr. Cooper about the percentage of time when they can't fly the recognized routes. Cooper said they can fly those most of the time when there is no other traffic in the pattern; however, if there is traffic, then it is about 50% of the time. Sutila said he understood the necessity for night training but would question the necessity of conducting that training at 11:00 PM. Mr. Cooper replied in June the sun sets much later, and they cannot log night time flights until one hour after sunset. McQuillan asked if there is no helicopter practice area for ATC to send traffic to. Cooper said there is on an east-west basis, depending on other traffic. McQuillan noted it is a challenge to turn inside that intersection. Larsen asked if there have been discussions about changing the amount of space available for the various operations since one of the training areas is gone and the other is more restrictive. Mr. Cooper said before the changes they could land much further to the west and the entire area was the helicopter practice area. Larsen noted the Nelsons said they have noticed a difference in the amount of noise since having the various conversations. Ms Nelson said their windows are closed now so they can't make an assessment. She appreciated Mr. Cooper as a businessman but it sounds like the previous conditions in the training area don't exist anymore so she believed Flying Cloud Airport is not the appropriate airport for their business. She understood from Ms Lewis that in the past a group of people asked Mr. Cooper to move his business from Faribault and she wondered how a decision was made by the City to allow a business to come in that would impact a vast number of people without consulting them. Larsen noted this situation is very complicated because the City of Eden Prairie has no authority or control over what is going on at Flying Cloud Airport in terms of the agreements we have with the MAC. In reviewing noise concerns expressed throughout the United States, there are no legal means to somehow bind aircraft owners for noise problems. Years ago the City of Eden Prairie was contemplating suing the MAC regarding the expansion of the runway. The City's consultant said that the chances of success for such a lawsuit were virtually nil,based on all the other legal activity going on throughout the U.S. We have a situation where we are trying to work with the operators at the airport under those constraints. After a series of discussions a couple of years ago some changes to times and flight patterns were made to reduce the amount of noise to the neighborhood. Ms Nelson questioned whether we are serving the needs of a few people and not the vast majority. She commented Eden Prairie must have something to do with businesses that come in. McQuillan noted it is the MAC that decides that, not the City. Ms Nelson asked if any business can come in there. McQuillan said they can with the MAC's approval. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 4 Sutila noted the land is owned by the MAC. Ms Nelson asked to whom she should talk regarding Hummingbird Aviation moving elsewhere inasmuch as we were able to get them to come here. She believed the noise from the helicopter training is impeding her quality of life, and she believed this is an inappropriate airport at which to have a helicopter flight school. McQuillan suggested it would be beneficial to explore this further at the next meeting because it sounds like the 2010 agreement changed things for a while but it has gotten bad again. He suggested consulting with other airports that have helicopter training traffic. Wilson said he will run this through his department and discuss it with Mr. Cooper. Gary Schmidt, representing the MAC, said the MAC was enacted to develop the aviation system in the metropolitan area. At this point Flying Cloud airport is almost entirely encroached upon. The new hangar area to the south has taken away some of the helicopter practice area and they are very limited as to where they could shift this operation. Their move here from Faribault was a business decision based on demand. Ms Nelson noted it was a demand of a select group of people, and we are bypassing the needs of the majority for the desires of the few. Mr. Cooper said his company serves a very large segment of the community and there are people from all over the Twin Cities area that come to them for training. Greg Proulx said he is a student at Hummingbird Aviation and from day one he was reminded repeatedly to be aware of the noise sensitive area. The Coopers and the instruction staff have been adamant about changing traffic patterns to observe the noise boundaries. He believed the Coopers have done a magnificent job of making all the students aware of the noise issues. Mr. Schmidt said he would commit to meeting with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Shadduck, the tower manager, to discuss a solution that might be more accommodating. Ms Nelson asked what would be considered by that group. McQuillan replied it would be a different practice area. Mr. Wilson said they have a meeting set up tomorrow with Hummingbird and the MAC. Mr. Nelson said they have been filling out complaints in the noise complaint system as much as possible and have put out flyers. He asked why it would take so long for action to be taken. Tschohl replied the Commission receives a report from Ms Lewis's office that summarizes all validated complaints from the airport. Unless we see some deviations from a baseline for the data, this Commission will not take any significant action. The Commission looks for a spike in the number of complaints or the number of households that are complaining. McQuillan said the MAC will now look at places to change the pattern. He noted pilots are very conscious of noise. There is a specific office at the MAC that has spent a lot of hours on these noise abatement procedures and many things come from the noise complaints. The other challenge specific to Flying Cloud Airport and many other regional FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 5 airports are the number of complaints from a single household that washes out some of the other legitimate complaints. Mr. Nelson noted most of the agreements are voluntary, and voluntary rules don't mean anything because it is then up to the pilots. Tschohl noted noise abatement is something that is in the back of his mind as a pilot,but he can't log time in the summer until 10:00 PM. He said he wants to be neighborly and is careful to use the south approach. Wilson said a lot of people that operate out of Flying Cloud airport also live in the area. They do think about the curfew and understand they may get a letter if they operate after hours. Ms Nelson said she hears the efforts being made but it isn't working. She would like someone to address how she will be able to continue to live in her house. She noted there are many others in the neighborhood who don't bother to put in complaints. Larsen said he has been involved in numerous sessions of the Commission where we have specifically recommended to the City of Eden Prairie not to allow development around the airport;however, it does become a situation where people living next to the airport are going to be affected by airport noise. He commented that the airport was there prior to many of the residents that are now complaining. McQuillan said the airport has been there since 1947 so this is where we get into an unproductive situation. He noted aircraft are getting quieter. He also noted all governmental bodies are becoming very litigation-aware. As soon as a rule is made and there is an accident because of following the rule, the governmental entity will be sued for a lot of money. He said that is where voluntary recommendations are helpful. Mr. Schmidt said the pilot must make the final decision about what is safe, but they do want to work with the neighborhood. Tschohl asked about the perspective of the neighborhood as a whole after the Nelson's distributed the fliers. Mr. Johnson said their concern is the helicopter traffic. They understand it is all under control of the MAC who has made a voluntary agreement with the City. Since it was the MAC's decision to permit more hangars that made the helicopter training area void, it should be up to the MAC to find alternatives. Mr. Schmidt said the helicopter training area is not part of the voluntary agreement but the training area itself was part of the voluntary agreement. Mr. Cooper noted one practice area is still there and they do use it. The practice area is more centrally located in the airport. Jim Shadduck, Tower Manager at Flying Cloud Airport, said they haven't changed anything in the last nine months. They are trying to utilize the letter of agreement. They are willing to do whatever they can to adhere to the agreement. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 6 Larsen asked that members of the community be kept informed about what is going on and what changes, if any, can be made. He asked for a report back at the January meeting. Mr. Nelson said they have to post their address with their complaints so that information is available. If a complaint is made multiple times he would think contact would be made to the complainant, so he did not understand why no one has contacted them. Larsen replied there was one household a couple of years ago that posted 6000 complaints in less than 60 days so that the report Ms Lewis generated from that data was 124 pages long. The information is collected and presented to the Commission. Ms Lewis added everyone who requested a call back receives one. Mr. Nelson asked if they need to call the hotline. Ms Lewis said the information goes into the same place,but the key is that they need to know the complainant wants to be contacted. There is an option to request a contact on the bottom of the online form. Mr. Nelson suggested there also be a place to put narrative on the complaint form. Larsen said we have asked Ms Lewis to contact a number of citizens who made large quantities of calls to see if they want to come to the Commission and discuss their complaints. Many of them have not responded so it is difficult to understand why they would place that many complaints but would not want to interact with the Commission. He noted because of public information policies we don't get people's specific names or addresses. Mr. Nelson said if the noise complaint system is receiving helicopter complaints over and over again he thought that would be something the Commission would jump on. Common sense would indicate that the helicopter training school should be approached. Ms Lewis said the complaints are coordinated every month and when we have specific operations matching up with the complaints the operator is contacted. There are things that happen and we work with the information we receive. Mr. Nelson noted they were frustrated with the system as it is and feel their voice is not being heard. Bill Halpin, 9695 Tree Farm Road, said he has lived in this neighborhood since 1986 when he started working at Elliott Aviation. He now works for Hummingbird as a mechanic and as a commercial pilot. The amount of times they have flown after 10:00 PM in the summer is minimal. As a pilot,he did not want to make anyone upset,but pilots have to do what they are told. Mr. Proulx asked if there would be any level of helicopter operations that would be acceptable. Mr. Johnson said the complaint is with Hummingbird Aviation and the fact the training they conduct has changed in the last few years. That business is now impinging on the neighborhood's ability to enjoy their property. Larsen asked Ms Lewis to see if there is a way to update the form to make it more specific to the concerns expressed. Ms Lewis said she would follow up and report back in January. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 7 IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES A. COMMISSION MEETING HELD THURSDAY,JULY 10, 2014 (Taken out of sequence) Esbensen said the minutes for the July meeting will be available for approval at the Commission's January meeting. II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA MOTION: Tschohl moved, seconded by McQuillan, to approve the agenda as published. Motion carried 6-0. V. DISCUSSION ITEMS A. WELCOME MIKE WILSON, NEW FCM MANAGER B. PREVIOUS HELICOPTER NOISE ABATEMENT STRATEGY OVERVIEW Wilson said they will meet again tomorrow to discuss what works for Hummingbird Aviation; however, nothing has really changed. Tschohl asked how much runway or green area is needed for helicopter approaches. Mr. Cooper said they can land in a cul-de-sac, but they need a greater area for approach and departure. They have to be concerned about the approach area, the egress area and a safe landing area. They are starting to be concerned about the patterns being so short and small that they are marginally adequate. Mr. Halpin said the helicopter training needs to include the two types of approaches: a shallow approach and a steep approach. He suggested a lot of their work could be done on the longer runway. Mr. Cooper said they are already doing that to some extent; however all of the maneuvers are dictated by the practical test requirements. Tschohl asked what sort of conflicts they would have on the south runway. Mr. Shadduck said when practical they operate on the south pattern. The larger runway is used by more aircraft now, and they must keep traffic moving efficiently. D. FCAAC ROSTER UPDATE - CHECK FOR ACCURACY (Taken out of sequence) Esbensen distributed a copy of the FCAAC roster for the Commission members to update. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 8 C. NOISE COMPLAINTS/STAGE 2 OPERATIONS REPORT FOR JULY- OCTOBER - MAC Ms Lewis reviewed the complaint data for the months of July through October. She noted there was an increase in complaints in September, with 590 complaints from 30 households. She compared that to the 469 complaints received from 23 households in July and the 454 complaints from 24 households in August. Complaints went down in October to 314 from 23 households. The highest number of complaints so far in 2014 was in March, with September's number the second highest. She said generally the number of complaints are down from 2013. She reviewed the number of letters sent to the airport operators, noting the same operators tend to get the letters each month. Hansen asked if there is any way to know what percentage of the flights are itinerant. Ms Lewis said she could try to get some numbers on that,but it is difficult to find out if they are based at Flying Cloud Airport. Lewis said there were two complaints about Stage 2 aircraft, one on October 22 and one on October 23. Those operators will get letters from the MAC. Esbensen asked whether the Stage 2 aircraft are being eliminated. Wilson said there is a mandate requiring their elimination by January of 2016. Lewis said they will need a special permit to continue to operate after that time;however their numbers are small so they don't expect many to go through the rather extensive process required to get the special permit. Esbensen asked if that meant the numbers won't go to zero. Mr. Cooper said Stage 2 aircraft could be modified but that is quite expensive. Esbensen noted the aircraft would not be Stage 2 if they were modified and asked if it would still be possible to have the occasional Stage 2 aircraft flight. Tschohl said there could be publicly-owned aircraft, but those would not show up on the report. E. ONGOING DEVELOPMENTS AT FCM 1. MAC Development Parcels Wilson said the MAC has a company that is trying to market these non- aeronautical use areas. They plan to revisit the lease terms. He noted Parcels No. 4 and 6 were withdrawn from the development plan. 2. New Hangar Areas Larsen asked about the hangar areas. Wilson said two have been constructed and one more has gone through the commission. 3. New Observation Area FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 9 Larsen said the Commission discussed having a place near the airport where members of the public could visit. Mr. Schmidt replied any place from which you can see is inside the fence. VI. EDUCATIONAL ITEMS - FCM Tour with Students and other interested Commissioners Larsen said in the past the Commission members have taken a tour of the airport and asked Mr. Wilson if he could arrange that. Wilson said his time was pretty open. VII. NOISE ABATEMENT/AIRCRAFT INCIDENTS VIII. NEW BUSINESS A. OPERATOR OF THE YEAR AWARD - Elliott Aviation Larsen said the award was given to Elliott Aviation. B. Work Plan - 2015 1. City Council Workshop Overview Process,January 20, 2015 Larsen said the Commission needs to finalize the information for the 2015 Work Plan to give to the City Council. The Commission has one meeting prior to the January meeting with the Council. He noted the meeting with the Council will probably be a brief presentation to the Council with some handouts. Tschohl volunteered to revise the 2014 presentation. He said he would call Mr. Wilson for some of the information. Larsen suggested getting the meeting information to Commission members for the January Commission meeting in order to get some comments. C. Commissioner Term Expiration Date for 2015 is March 2015 1. Jeffrey Larsen - Business Rep. 2. Ben McQuillan - Business Rep. 3. Joseph Sutila - Community Rep. IX. OTHER BUSINESS A. VARIOUS FYI ITEMS FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES November 13, 2014 Page 10 1. Next Commission Meeting--January 8, 2015 Larsen noted the next meeting will be in the City Hall Heritage Rooms. III. ADJOURNMENT MOTION: Hansen moved, seconded by Tschohl, to adjourn the meeting. Motion carried 6-0. Chair Larsen adjourned the meeting at 9:02 PM.