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HomeMy WebLinkAboutFlying Cloud Airport Advisory Commission - 09/08/2011 APPROVED MINUTES FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 8, 2011 7:00 P.M. CITY CENTER Heritage Room 1 8080 Mitchell Road COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair Jeff Larsen; Vice-Chair Mark Michelson; Commissioners: Caryl Hansen, John Pratten (arrived at 7:15 p.m.), Keith Tschohl, Jeff Nawrocki and Kurt Schendel VISITORS: Dana Swanson and Chad Leqve—MAC Representatives; Mary Blake, Flying Cloud Air Traffic Control Manager STUDENT REPRESENTATIVES: John Bowman and Kevin Gadel STAFF: Scott Kipp, Senior Planner; Carol Pelzel, City Recorder I. CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL Chair Larsen called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. II. APPROVAL AGENDA Tschohl said with the additional attendance of residents at tonight's meeting he would not be opposed to moving his item to just before adjournment. Chair Larsen said he would like to add an item under Section VII- Discussion Items for discussion of an Al-Qaida threat specifically to small aircraft. He would like Nawrocki, Manager of Flying Cloud, address how things are proceeding up to the memorial of 9/11. MOTION: Tschohl moved, seconded by Michelson, to approve the agenda as amended. The motion carried unanimously. III. WELCOME NEW STUDENT REPRESENTATIVES Larsen welcomed John Bowman and Kevin Gadel as the Commission's new student representatives. He said they will be participating as Commission members but do not have voting privileges. IV. PUBLIC COMMENT Larsen explained normally they have a public comment period for anyone in the audience. The Commission has been asked to allow several residents to speak and the Commission will consider their concerns further in the agenda. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 2 V. APPROVAL OF MINUTES A. AIRPORT TOUR HELD THURSDAY,JULY 14, 2011 MOTION: Michelson moved, seconded by Tschohl, to approve the July 14 Airport Tour minutes as published. Motion carried unanimously. B. COMMISSION MEETING HELD THURSDAY,JULY 14, 2011 MOTION: Motion was made by Hansen, seconded by Tschohl, to approve the July 14, 2011 Commission minutes as published. The motion carried unanimously. VI. GUEST SPEAKERS A. AIRCRAFT NOISE CONCERNS FROM A RESIDENT PERSPECTIVE Larsen explained that at each meeting the Commission has received noise reports from MAC that include reports since their last meeting. The Commission has looked at these reports to determine noise trends and to look at how they can change those trends and to determine if there is something they can do as a Commission to limit noise at Flying Cloud. The information received is subject to data privacy rules. They do not know the names, addresses or telephone numbers of the individuals filing the complaints. Larsen briefly reviewed the information contained on the reports received from MAC. He indicated the Commission wanted to receive input from someone who has been using MAC's noise complaint system and asked Dana Swanson, the MAC representative compiling the noise data, to provide the Commission with the name of an individual who has filed complaints and to see whether or not that person would be willing to appear before the Commission to provide their input regarding noise at Flying Cloud. The first speaker this evening is that person contacted by MAC. Speaker#1 explained her complaints revolve around helicopter noise from training flights. She does not understand why these training flights continually fly over her home when the Airport Commission reports indicate that all helicopter training shall be conducted within a helicopter traffic area. Speaker#1 said this is not happening. These flights are actually north of the east/west runway. They are over Staring and McCoy Lakes. She indicated she has logged over 1,600 helicopter complaints for flights that are north of the designated pattern area. There were 22 helicopter flights over her house in 40 minutes and they are extremely noisy. Speaker#1 said this is unreasonable and they are not flying over the designated area. Nawrocki explained he is the manager of Flying Cloud Airport and asked if the helicopter she is referring to is red. They do have a helicopter operator at the airport that does helicopter training and maintenance and in addition this individual does do training at multiple airports including Flying Cloud. Nawrocki said they have talked to this operator a number of times and they are aware of the noise. Nawrocki explained this is a public use airport and is open 24-hours a day. The operator is aware of their concerns. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 3 Mary Blake, Air Traffic Control Manager at Flying Cloud, explained the practice area includes four flight paths; west, north and south of the airport. Certain factors determine the flight path that is to be used. Their number one concern is keeping aircraft apart from each other and safety. Other considerations are efficiency, noise and weather and at times they are down to one runway. There are a lot of considerations and they don't send aircraft over residential areas intentionally. Speaker#1 said this is not normal airport noise. She questioned if there aren't less populated areas they could fly over. They do not need to fly 22 times over one neighborhood. Blake said they will work with the operator but cannot promise they won't fly over her residence again. The controllers are aware of the noise complaints and they do consider the residents but there are other considerations they have to take into account. Blake said they cannot see from the tower if the aircraft is flying in the designated practice area. Nawrocki pointed out the operator is also training at four other airports and expressed concern with where his helicopter is based. It is based south of Eden Prairie and to fly 30 miles in any different direction increases his expenses. Larsen said if he is at four other locations he must be disturbing a tremendous number of people. Larsen asked Nawrocki to talk to the operator again and explain members of the community are extremely concerned and ask if there is something he can do to modify his operation. Nawrocki responded he has talked to him a number of times and even suggested he use Air Lake Airport. MAC has no authority to tell him he can't train at Flying Cloud. Larsen asked once training is completed would operations go down. Nawrocki said they should. Blake pointed out they do have recurrent training. Speaker#2 said she has talked to Nawrocki in the past regarding airport noise and has been a resident of Eden Prairie for 22 years and may now be faced with having to move out of their home because of the noise. She asked if they are telling them that there is nothing they can do. She said they pay taxes in the City and questioned why a helicopter training facility is located at Flying Cloud. Chad Leqve, Manager of Noise Environment and Planning for MAC, said the training facility is there because Flying Cloud is an airport. Speaker#2 asked who decides if they can have helicopter training at the airport. Leqve said he would like to have the opportunity to see if there isn't something they can do with the concerns expressed this evening and then come back to this group with a report of their progress. He explained MAC's system airports are public use airports. Because they are public use airports they have the right to conduct legal aviation operations. The operations of the helicopter operator are legal aviation operations. The airport is located in a residential area and for those facilities to be convenient to people who want to use the airport as transportation they have to be conveniently located for those users. Leqve said he understands Nawrocki has talked to the helicopter operator and they are towards the end of their training cycle. He FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 4 anticipates repetitive operations going away. Leqve said they will look at it and will talk to the tower and look at ways to deal with this issue. They will try to do everything they can to resolve this issue but he is not in a position to tell the residents that things will change. Larsen explained the last time there were concerns with helicopter noise MAC was able to resolve the situation so the people complaining about the problem felt it had improved. However, in this particular case, people are trying to get training hours in and perhaps once they have those hours in they will move to a different location. Speaker#3 said he has talked to Nawrocki on several occasions regarding airport noise and understands Speaker#1's issues. They are not opposed to helicopter training but it is the repetitive noise they are opposed to. From noon to 4 p.m. yesterday a helicopter flew over the same pattern and this is absolutely ridiculous. He knows they can try to do something about that. Nobody trains at four different airports and comes back to Flying Cloud every day. Speaker#3 said another problem is helicopter training occurring at night. They did talk to the operator and that problem was taken care of,however, the biggest issue is the red helicopter. Speaker#2 asked why the noise ordinance is voluntary. Leqve briefly reviewed the operation of Flying Cloud Airport. He explained that FAA's operation of this airport is to have safe and efficient operation of the airport. There is no way the FAA would adopt an ordinance dictating operations of the airport. The noise ordinance is not a governing document. Blake explained the airport receives a lot of funding from the FAA and they will not allow an ordinance restricting use of the airport. Speaker#2 asked how they could make Flying Cloud a private airport. She explained the space around the airport is not livable. She said they now have larger aircraft taking off and landing at the airport and there is more air traffic and helicopters. Leqve pointed out last year they had the lowest number of flights out of Flying Cloud; one-quarter of what it was. They have a strange situation where the number of noise complaints has increased while the number of flights has decreased. Speaker#2 said she lives east of the airport and north of Pioneer Trail and now they have commercial aircraft flying over their property. Blake explained the commercial aircraft are coming from MSP. Speaker#2 said things have changed dramatically and they need to revisit the Board because the City of Eden Prairie is controlled by Thunderbird. Speaker#4 said yesterday all day long there were helicopter flights going over their homes. One neighbor moved their bedrooms because they work different shifts and they needed their rest. Speaker#2 said it is a combination of everything including helicopters that have caused these noise issues. They need to do something about Hummingbird and their helicopter operations. Leqve responded Hummingbird has a lease with MAC to operate a public facility and they have to be allowed to operate at Flying Cloud. Michelson explained once the Airport accepts money from the Federal Government FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 5 they are governed by the Federal Aviation Administration and cannot be discriminatory. Michelson said he has fought airport noise for 20 years even before expansion of the airport and it is not going to get any better. That is why this Commission was reformulated. Nawrocki explained some previous concerns have been addressed and resolved. They do talk with operators and work with them. Larsen asked MAC representatives to look into these complaints a little more and get back to the Commission. He also said he would like to notify the people who are here in attendance what the outcome of MAC's work is. Leqve said they would do that and would have discussions with the operator before the next Commission meeting. It appears the common thread is the helicopter operations while the other issue is that this is a public use airport and the problems are not resolvable at this time. Larsen explained typically, MAC, the FAA and airport manager have come up with something that has been beneficial to the people. He asked for a report at the Commission's November meeting with some additional information on the Letter of Agreement in terms of areas that are to be used for helicopter training. Larsen said they need to investigate why the pilots are not following the Letter of Agreement. Leqve said if the pilots are requesting to fly outside of the designated area MAC may need to talk to the tenants more and the people doing the actual flying and ask for their help. Speaker#4 said if her neighbor had not put a notice about this meeting in her mailbox she would not know this group existed. The issues are not only with the red helicopter but also with the Channel 9 helicopter. Speaker#2 said people aren't aware that they can come before this Commission to express their concerns. Larsen explained this Commission meets six times a year and all of the information regarding this Commission is on the City's website. Speaker#2 suggested the Commission make itself more prevalent to the community that they exist. Leqve said the helicopter situation may be something they need to look at ongoing. Training at Flying Cloud for helicopters will continue to occur. He would like to have the opportunity to see if there is something they can do about these flights. Larsen reported the next meeting of this Commission is scheduled for November 10. He also explained MAC is very good in trying to help the Commission and to work in the confines and ability they have to work with. The City Council does receive copies of these meeting minutes so the resident's concerns will be relayed to the City Council. Speaker#2 said she did speak with the Mayor and she indicated Mayor Harris was successful in renegotiating noise issues with MAC but unfortunately that has gone to the wayside. Speaker#2 asked what happened. Michelson indicated the Memorandum of Agreement is still in effect and has been since 2002. Speaker#2 said she would like the contact information from the other residents so they can get organized. Leqve said they would come back to this Commission on November 10 to provide them with a report and he asked that everyone here this evening come back to that meeting. He said it takes good will on all sides and they are trying to work with the FAA and tenants and if there is a strong posture taken from any one side people FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 6 can walk away. He said it is great that Speaker#2 wants to get organized but he asked that they give MAC a chance to talk to the FAA and operators to see if they can resolve the helicopter noise issue. If that doesn't work then it would be reasonable for the residents to pursue other options. VII. DISCUSSION ITEMS A. AL-QAIDA THREAT TO SMALL AIRCRAFT Larsen explained Homeland Security has put out a threat specific to small aircraft and the City Council has been contacted by people asking what has been done at Flying Cloud to make it safer and more secure. Nawrocki explained their efforts for safety do not occur only when there are security events but always stay the same. They have an observant group of tenants and businesses that watch over the airport. On 9/11 they will have increased patrol by the Hennepin County Sheriff Department throughout the day and there may be some additional patrols by the City's Police Department. As a coincidence, Governor Dayton will be appearing at Grace Church down the road addressing law enforcement and fire agencies so there will be additional security related to that event. Nawrocki said they have not received any direction from TSA. He explained whenever they are at an elevated security level there are more eyes and ears out there. There is always someone touching base about any concerns that don't look right out at the airport. Larsen said he knows the City Council has been made aware of some public concerns on this issue and it would be appropriate for this Commission to say that they had discussed this situation and there will be increased patrols and because of the airport's security measures, local law enforcement and tenants of the airport safety issues are being addressed. Also, a previous security review added fencing, gates and lights and it is unlikely Flying Cloud would be used to try to perform some act of terrorism. Larsen suggested this Commission make a general statement to the City Manager explaining people are thinking about this and this Commission takes security seriously. The Commission has discussed this issue and thinks it has been appropriately addressed. Nawrocki said he would prepare a statement for Larsen's review to be sent to the City Manager. Pratten asked if there would be any significant changes as to who can get through the gates. Nawrocki responded secure gate codes are issued to airport tenants. There are separate codes for businesses and agencies. They would not change codes at this point. One big challenge is when a tenant goes through a gate they need to stop to make sure someone else doesn't get through. They have a good group of tenants that challenge people if they see fit. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 7 B. NEW BUSINESS MODEL FOR SOUTHSIDE HANGAR DEVELOPMENT An "Operational Practices and Capital Funding for General Aviation in the MAC System" memorandum prepared by Michelson was distributed to the Commission. Larsen said since the meeting is running late he asked if they could discuss this further at their next meeting. Michelson said he wanted to remind people the point of this memorandum is because of discussion started with the concept of higher correlation noise to hangars than there is to anything else. The more hangars they have the more airplane operations there will be, etc. Michelson said there is a new business model to develop the south side of the hangar area at the airport with additional hangars and noise. He said that is what precipitated his comments. There is not a lot they can do about this and he is sure they are moving ahead with this plan. Michelson said his comments puts into perspective what is going on. Larsen explained this is an informational piece and is Michelson's perspective and is a non-actionable item. C. 2012-2018 MAC CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTPROGRAM Nawrocki presented an overview of MAC's 2012-2018 Capital Improvement Program. Proposed projects that are funded 100 percent by others include $100,000 in 2012 for Flying Cloud Commercial Development and $1.5 million for South Building Area Development. The Building Area Development will be funded by users of the hangars. He explained other proposed projects at Flying Cloud for 2012 include alleyway rehabilitation for a cost of$300,000 and $50,000 for east/west perimeter road. Nawrocki stated the commercial development includes a three-acre parcel at the intersection of Pioneer Trail and Spring Road. The proposed $100,000 will be used for study work to get a lease established for a business interested in construction in that area. Any projects beyond 2012 are placeholders only. VIII. EDUCATIONAL ITEMS A. UPDATE ON IMPROVING PILOT EDUCATION Larsen said he wanted to see if the items presented at the pilot training class given at Flying Cloud would be of interest to this Commission. Tschohl said a copy of that presentation was posted on MAC's website. Swanson distributed a copy of the presentation to the Commission. Larsen asked that the presentation be sent to Kipp electronically for distribution to the Commission and that it be included on the Commission's agenda for further discussion next month. Items like this and information given to pilots regarding noise should also be given to this Commission. Larsen explained that Commissioner Tschohl put together a comprehensive report about things that could be done for improving pilot education. He strongly recommended that Commissioners review this information. Due to the length of the report and the late hour, Larsen asked Tschohl and Blake to highlight some of the slides from that presentation. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 8 Tschohl explained any opinions or recommendations presented are solely his opinion and not endorsed by the City, FCAAC, MAC or the FAA. Tschohl highlighted the various items he proposed to Blake and reviewed the responses to his suggestions. He also reviewed recommendations for educating transient pilots. One of his recommendations was for the Airport Manager to provide noise abatement information to third party sources of airport information. Nawrocki said he would look into that recommendation and would discuss this further with Tschohl. Leqve reported he is involved in redesigning MAC's noise website. They are going through the process of evaluating the effectiveness of the site based on target audiences and one of the targets is the pilots. They will be developing a pilot section to provide insight of each airport. Leqve said they are hoping that will provide a better communication to all stakeholders including pilots. They are planning to roll this new website out to the general public on November 17. He suggested they do a demo of this site at the Commission's January meeting for feedback. Larsen explained due to the time constraint he would like to carry this report over for additional discussion at their next meeting. Michelson said he likes the ideas presented and agrees there is a need to reach out to the transient pilots. IX. FINAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN CITY AND MAC B. NOISE COMPLAINTS/STAGE 2 OPERATIONS REPORT (JULY- AUGUST) This item was discussed earlier in the agenda. Kipp reported these noise complaint reports are posted on the City's website for the last 2 and one-half years. Swanson distributed the noise complaints for July—August, 2011 and reviewed the maps and a report explaining the first map shows the location of the noise complaints. It displays the general area of where people submitted the complaints. An identifier number is assigned to the complaint and a dot attached to the number is sized by the number of complaints made. Swanson also explained a table is provided breaking down each complaint. For the audience's benefit, Swanson reviewed the report presented to the Commission explaining the various items included in the report. Speaker#2 asked what is done when there is an issue other than talk to the offender. Swanson explained when they receive nighttime complaints and are able to correlate the complaint with a flight and are able to identify the aircraft operator a letter is sent stating this airport is noise sensitive and ask the operator to be considerate of the residents. This letter lists the exact date and time of their operation. They also request the operator to respond to the letter and to provide a reason for their operation. Swanson said they try and touch every pilot flying in and out of Flying Cloud at night. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 9 Larsen said they try to make sure people operating out of the airport know the people in the City are concerned about the noise they are generating. Most people do want to be good neighbors but because of the nature of their business there are a few that can't do what people would like. He stated they try to meet with new businesses to the airport to talk about the noise concerns and how it would be valuable to their reputation to be a good neighbor and to take into account noise abatement procedures. Hansen asked why complaints two, three or four minutes apart are coming up as duplicates. She knows there are different flights that are that close together. Swanson responded the system automatically matches the flight with the complaint closest to the approach aircraft. It takes the time of the flight and if that pings the same flight track more than one time it lists it as a duplicate. Leqve said if there are instances where she is aware of different flights being this close together he would like her to provide that information to them so they can take a better look at it and maybe they can make improvements to the system. Speaker#5 asked if this report is able to identify the altitude an aircraft is flying. The helicopter flying over their home is flying extremely low. He asked if there are regulations on how high they have to be. Blake answered it depends on what type of training they are doing. Those on pattern training may have a different altitude. Leqve said that aircraft may be mosquito control and they fly lower. Larsen suggested the next time this happens they contact Swanson directly at MAC. Michelson said in looking through the reports it appears helicopter reports are minimal. He asked if there is a particular problem in identifying them. Swanson responded generally helicopters operate on visual flight rules and don't have a specific transponder code which is what their system looks at. Helicopters don't generally file a flight plan. Larsen asked the audience members to contact Scott Kipp at the City should they want additional information from this Commission. The Commission is limited on what they can do but have a history with people working with them to make it better than it has been. X. NOISE ABATEMENT/AIRCRAFT INCIDENTS XI. NEW BUSINESS Larsen reported a gentleman was killed Monday after his plane crashed about a quarter of a mile away from the Winsted Airport. The plane had left from Flying Cloud Airport. He explained at this point it is too early to know the circumstances of that accident. He asked that this be included on the Commission's agenda as a future topic. When a flight generates or ends at Flying Cloud it is interesting to get the details. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 10 XII. OTHER BUSINESS A. AIR EXPO Nawrocki reported there were approximately 20,000 people in attendance. There were no instances or issues. It was a successful event and representatives from the City's Police and Fire Departments were there both days. Michelson said they have looked at the noise complaint reports for two and one-half years and there have been people who have made multiple complaints and he thought they were just happy clickers. What they found out this evening is there are some people who are upset and Michelson said he feels they have ignored them. He said maybe they need to be more proactive. He suggested the Commission invite someone in to talk about this twice a year. Leqve said he has not worked with a Commission who has been as sensitive or as in touch with the residents. This Commission has been very cognizant of the noise issue and duplicate complaints have nothing to do with what the residents were talking about this evening. Michelson asked if it would be worthwhile to invite others who have a lot of complaints or consistently complaining to appear before this Commission to hear their perspective. Leqve said the Commission can invite dialogue that may have no solution to it. There are certain items they can't mitigate. Looking for people to appear before the Commission may have different ramifications. They don't want to lose focus on what this Commission is doing. Michelson said they would be inviting a certain amount of feedback they can't do anything about. Leqve suggested they consider a public forum. Larsen said the Commission has heard from different stakeholders and he feels one of the things missing is people from the public. He said he wants to make a point to get someone to come in and hear their perspective particularly like the speaker who has made 1,500 helicopter complaints. He feels there is no problem with talking with people in the community. Leqve said they could look at putting in a better definition of who the people are complaining and then the Commission can decide if they want to actively reach out to those people. Michelson said he questions if they want to reach out and bring people in knowing it is a frustrating discussion for both parties and there are a limited amount of things they can do. Hopefully what they are doing now will help. Michelson said he believes they need to decide if they want to have an open forum once a year for complaints. Larsen indicated November is this Commission's last meeting of the year. They need to focus on what they want to schedule for their meetings next year. They will need to establish what kind of interaction they want to have with people who complain about airport noise. He asked Commission members to think about that between now and the next meeting. Larsen said they also need to work on their annual report to the City Council. He asked Commission members to provide Kipp with any ideas they might have for topics for next year. FLYING CLOUD AIRPORT ADVISORY COMMISSION MINUTES September 8, 2011 Page 11 Pratten said since he joined this Commission they have talked about airport noise and they have always thought it was an important issue. He does not believe anyone here is not sensitive to the community. He believes this Commission has to help manage expectations. There are some noise issues they can't help with. Some residents are mixing up the noise from both Flying Cloud and MSP. Tschohl said this Commission has a lot of tools through MAC to outline specifically what the problems are. They have the multilateration system, reporting system, etc. and he has not seen an objective measuring as to what is actually too much noise. He asked if MAC has a portable sound level meter they could place at a residential house. Leqve explained noise is subjective and is unique to each individual. Tschohl said he would like to understand noise levels in terms they can better understand. He would like help in getting his finger on what sorts of things they should follow. Larsen said they may want to look at the quality of the event. There may be eight complaints for one airplane versus eight airplanes and one complaint. Schendel said this evening they had two households represented and both came in for noise issues. One specific problem was 22 flights going over one neighborhood in 40 minutes. This is a problem the Commission can work around while the other resident's objective was to put the airport out of business. This resident has lived in the City for 22 years and never appeared before this Commission or aware of the expansion. There were numerous meetings regarding the expansion while the expansion was going on and now this resident appeared before the Commission indicating the airport should not exist. Schendel said he doesn't mind addressing a specific problem where they can get them an answer while the other objective is a long process of education and is something they can't do in one evening. B. VARIOUS FYI ITEMS 1. Approved FCAAC Minutes of May 12, 2011 2. Meeting Schedule for Remaining 2011 and New 2012 3. Thunderbird Aviation Redevelopment 4. Eden Prairie News Article Re: EP Man Killed in Plane Crash 5. Terror Warning: Al-Qaida 6. Next Commission Meeting—July 14, 2011 XIII. ADJOURNMENT MOTION: Motion was made by Tschohl, seconded by Schendel, to adjourn the meeting. Motion carried, 7-0. The meeting adjourned at 9:50 p.m.