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APPROVED MINUTES
BOARD OF APPEALS AND ADJUSTMENTS
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 209 1994 7:00 P.M., CITY CENTER
8080 MITCHELL ROAD
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
BOARD OF APPEALS MEMBERS: ARTHUR WEEKS (CHAIR), CLIFF
DUNHAM, DELAVAN DYE, CORRINE
LYNCH, RONALD MOELLER, KATHY
NELSON, MARY VASALY
STAFF PRESENT: STEVE DURHAM, ZONING
ADMINISTRATOR
ELINDA BAHLEY, RECORDING
SECRETARY
BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT: RONALD MOELLER
• CALL TO ORDER - ROLL CALL - PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Chairman Weeks called the meeting to
order at 7:00 P.M. There was no pledge of allegiance because there was no flag present.
Moeller was absent and Lynch arrived at 7:05 P.M.
I. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION•
Dunham moved that the Board approve the Agenda as presented. Vasaly seconded
the motion and it passed unanimously.
H. MINUTES OF NOVEMBER 10j1994 MEETING
Dunham moved that the Board accept the Minutes of November 10, 1994 as
amended: in the middle of page 3 when it says the designer re-evaluated other
alternatives and discovered they were off by 8', it should read that what the person
measuring was using was off by 8'. It's a vertical error. Vasaly seconded the
motion. Motion passed with Nelson abstaining.
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Board of Adjustments & Appeals
December 20, 1994
III. VARIANCES
Weeks explained the order of the Variance presentation process to those in
attendance.
A. Request #94-31 by Mark Of Excellence Homes, Inc. to permit: 1. One
sign of 100 square feet which has more than 18" between sign faces (City
code does not permit more than 1" between sign faces.) 2. One single
faced sign of 100 square feet (City code permits a sign not to exceed 32
square feet.) 3. Sign heights of 10' (City code permits a maximum height
of 6' in the residential zoning district.) 4 To permit two signs on one lot
(may code permits one temporary sign per lot.)
Mark Smith, of Excellence Homes, came forward to present the variance request. He
thanked the Board for the special meeting because he is trying to get this sign up
before the end of the year. He said that he is aware of the new sign ordinance. The
reason he feels this sign is a hardship is that the Hartford site has been a commercial
site since 1979. When people are told that the location is to the east of Eden Prairie
Center, they refer to it as the "commercial park." Nobody is identifying it as a
residential development. This creates a hardship trying to get people to start thinking
residential. The site is 14 acres on the site and he does not feel two signs are a lot for
that size.
Dunham asked what the location of the sign proposal is. Smith replied it's on the
other side of the driveway, a little more towards Eden Prairie Center Drive.
Smith stated that he is not looking at long term, maybe a year at the most. Then he
could have a permanent sign that they have done in other developments, a brick sign
that fits within the Code. He said it would be oval western wood surrounded by
brick, and will become the entrance sign of the development. This is a temporary
sign to help the marketing for the development.
Nelson asked how he picked the particular dimensions. Smith replied that they have
used this on three other sites and never had complaints about them.
Lynch asked if they have to get a variance, or is this a more restrictive. Smith
replied that this is more restrictive.
Lynch asked if they could settle for anything less. Smith replied that they would have
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to do a lot of modifying to the signs and redo them.
Dunham asked if the signs have been made and if they used them in other
communities. Smith replied that they are already made and have been used before.
Durham stated that Staff has not received any comments from any of the surrounding
neighborhoods, and no calls have been received about this particular variance. He
said that the number of signs for this size project would be considered a large
amount. For the number of units, it may be considered a large sign request for the
number of units that they are selling.
Smith stated that he is not trying to get traffic from 494, but maybe visually conscious
people will pick it up. The way they are building on this site, it will not be visible.
They are building on one side of the street and those units are up 25 feet above the
lower units, so there is almost a wall.
Vasaly asked if any of the other developments have signs yet. Smith replied that as
far he knows, they do not have signs.
• Vasaly asked if the other developments have come in with plans for their signs.
Durham replied that they have not. He said that this is a temporary sign, and when
they start to build they will come in at that point. He said the definition of a
temporary sign is, no sign permit required, 32 square feet maximum, and you go with
the district height permitted, and that's six feet.
Weeks asked if there are any limitations. Durham replied that after 90% of the
development is completed, the sign will come down.
Vasaly stated that if these limits apply to the temporary sign, then actually the Code is
more restrictive. Durham replied that she was correct. He said that through a PUD
process there is the large sign, but this is not a PUD.
Dye stated that in the plans it says townhouses and single family homes, therefore,
they are not developed. Durham replied that originally that was all office, but there
is a building there already.
Dye asked if Excellence Homes is planning on developing there. Smith replied that
it's Pulte Homes and they will start in the spring or summer.
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Dunham asked what the distance of 494 is to this site. Smith replied a quarter to a
third of a mile.
Dunham asked what size the letters are. Smith replied they are 18 inches high.
Dunham asked where would he be approaching the site from 494. Durham replied
from the west.
Vasaly asked if any study, on the need for the size of the sign, as far as it's use in
attracting a certain amount of people, or anything of that sort has been done. Smith
replied that they have not done any scientific study, but they have noticed that the
signs have been helpful in the past. Once they put up the signs, there was a
tremendous amount of people. He said that once a sign is put up, it's known that you
have to drive by it six times before it's memorized. The two things they have used in
other developments have been the sign and newspaper advertisements.
Vasaly asked if they have had any experience with different sizes of signs and
determined whether there is a great difference in their utility. Smith replied that they
• have not.
Durham passed out photographs of the signs to the Board.
Nelson asked if the larger PUD would be just one sign, and would it be 100 square
feet on each leg of the "V". Durham replied that she was correct.
Smith stated that, if at all possible, he could compromise on the "V" sign. He could
live with one side of that "V" by cutting that sign in half.
Durham stated that as long as there's not 18 inches between them and perpendicular,
that would get rid of at least the space. Smith replied that it is acceptable to him.
Nelson asked if that's considered a 50 foot square on two sides. Durham replied that
in the commercial zoning you allowed 80 square feet on both sides.
Vasaly asked if eliminating the "V" sign corrects the #4 variance. Durham replied
no, that it's still two signs. It would eliminate part of #1, and then you would be
with a 100 square foot sign.
Weeks asked what kind of time-frame would Excellence Homes project for leaving
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the sign up. Smith replied approximately nine months to a year, a year and a half
being the longest. Realistically, it would probably be a year. He said he feels the
hardship now is trying to convince the people that there are changes and it's no longer
a business park. He said he would settle for only 9 months.
Dye asked if it was a business, how big could the sign be. Durham replied that 32
square feet is the maximum for commercial, residential or industrial sites.
Dunham expressed concern about setting a precedent. He said he can understand the
desire to have a larger sign facing 494, but can not understand the rationale here. He
asked if the hardship is that they already have the sign. Smith replied that it is not
the reason. He said the bigger hardship is people don't have any idea this is a
residential setting now, or residentially approved property.
Dunham asked what the timetables are of developing. Smith replied probably a
basement for the models starting in February.
Dunham asked where would they be in a year from now in terms of development.
Smith replied probably about 20 units up.
Dunham asked if they are going to do more newspaper advertising to make people
aware this is a residential building as opposed to commercial. Smith replied that they
will do more advertising. He said that their buyers are not typical, that newspaper
advertising is not the number one way that they find what they're looking for. The
priority is a place of convenience to where they work, where they recreate. They
drive in the area that they want to locate in and don't want to look at newspapers.
They want things that are visible. He said that their best sites have been close to
highways and they can see something happening there.
Vasaly suggested buying another sign on 494 because there are lots of signs. Smith
replied that they are billboards.
Dye was unsure of the amount of lots and asked how many signs will they need if it's
one sign per lot. Durham replied that there are individual lots, but this is for the
entire subdivision, marketing the entire project. He said it's a six square foot sign
per lot.
Lynch stated that they could find the hardship is the size just missing the PUD.
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Vasaly stated that there are specific Code requirements. She said just because it does
not meet the requirements, don't make it a hardship.
Nelson stated that she has a lot of concerns about development going on in Eden
Prairie and developers making do with the small signs. She said the small signs look
better in her opinion. She is not sure that a hardship is warranted. She said the
Board is not there to grant variances from sign Code to simply grant people free
advertising space along major freeways. A lot of people would like that and the
Board has turned them down over and over again.
Dunham asked what the size of the billboard sign on 494 is. Smith replied 16 by 40
is classified as a billboard, and would guess at 16 to 18 feet of height.
Dunham stated that he's having a problem with this because of the nature of the
request. He understands the proponent's desire for this sign. He feels that once this
gets developed and gets going in terms of development, people are going to know
about it. He has a hard time believing that people will not know about it. He said
there are many other resources available that can be utilized to counteract the
misconception that this is not a residential site. He is concerned about the two
adjacent developments and what they might want to have if something like this is
done on this particular site, in addition to other developments throughout Eden
Prairie. He feels the hardship is more of an economic hardship than maybe a
physical hardship. He said he would deny all the requests and might have some
recourse on this if it were for a six foot sign.
Weeks opened the public hearing.
Weeks closed the public hearing.
Dye asked if it's possible if they could put up 29 two by three signs to designate lot
#1, lot #2, etc. Durham replied yes, that they are out there in the community.
Dye asked if it would require any variance. Durham replied that it wouldn't.
Dunham asked if there is a way that they can cut the sign in half and put the two
signs back to back so they have a four foot sign. They could have luxury townhomes
on one side and something on the other side. Mark replied that would be fine and
doesn't have a problem doing that. He said he wants to promote townhomes, that the
logo is not as important.
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December 20, 1994
Dunham asked why wouldn't having the company name be important. Smith replied
that if he had it his way it would all be there. To him, letting people know what's
there is more important. The people will find out who is building there when they
call.
Dunham stated that if the requests are denied they would have to comply with the
ordinance. If the Board felt that there was a way they could continue this, Excellence
Homes could come back with an alternative plan. He asked if they are prepared to do
that.
Smith replied that he's trying to get an idea if it's the sign that faces 494 is the
problem, or if it's all the signs that size are the problem.
Dunham stated that for him it's all the signs.
Nelson stated all the signs are the problem for her.
Vasaly stated all the signs are her problem also.
• Nelson stated that a lot of developments in Eden Prairie have been building without
these big signs. She said this site has a nice setting with lakes and parklands. They
are not going to be tough to sell.
Smith said that he knows people are driving by there everyday and do not have a clue
as to what is going on there. Nelson replied that they might not know in January, but
in February or March they will.
Weeks stated that if the Board denies this, Excellence Homes has the right to request
an appeal within 15 days. If they stick with the Code requirements and utilize other
newspapers, they can come back and still request another variance. They would have
to pay another filing fee with the City.
MOTION•
Nelson moved that the Board deny variance request #94-31 in it's entirety. Vasaly
seconded the motion and it passed unanimously.
IV. OLD BUSINESS
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December 20, 1994
None.
V. NEW BUSINESS
None.
VI. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION:
Dunham moved that the Board adjourn. Dye seconded the motion and it passed
unanimously.
Meeting adjourned at 7:50 P.M.
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