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HomeMy WebLinkAboutParks and Recreation - 12/05/2005 APPROVED MINUTES PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 2005 7:00 P.M., CITY CENTER Heritage Rooms 3 & 4 8080 Mitchell Road COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Rob Barrett, Randy Jacobus, Ian Mackay, Michael Moriarity and Geri Napuck (arrived at 7:35 p.m.) COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: John Brill, Tom Bierman and Jeffrey Gerst COMMISSION STAFF PRESENT: Bob Lambert, Director of Parks and Recreation Services; Stu Fox, Manager of Natural Resources; and Carol Pelzel, Recording Secretary STUDENT REPRESENTATIVES: Danny Crichton, Graham Kist, Ali Neugebauer I. CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order by Chair Barrett at 7:15 p.m. II. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Motion: Moriarity moved, seconded by Mackay, to approve the agenda as presented. The motion carried, 4-0. IV. PETITIONS, REQUESTS AND COMMUNICATION A. BRYANT LAKE SKI TEAM REQUEST Lambert reported that the Commission had received with their agenda material a copy of the original request from the Bryant Lake Ski Team for a submersible slalom ski course on Bryant Lake along with the new proposed location. The major concern of the Three Rivers Park District for the original course was environmental concerns. The applicant did try to address those concerns and have since relocated the proposed course from the Regional Park shoreline into deeper water. Lambert explained the process for obtaining a permit for such a course indicating that the Parks Commission would make a recommendation to the City Council and should that recommendation be for approval and if the Council concurs, the request would be forwarded to the Hennepin County Sheriff's Water Patrol for their consideration. The Water Patrol generally follows the recommendation of the local governing body. Lambert said that copies of letters PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 2 received by the City in support and opposition to this request were also included in the Commissioner's agenda material. He also distributed a copy of a letter from a resident received after the agenda went out in opposition to this request. Joe Docter, representative from the Bryant Lake Ski Team, 7032 Willow Creek Road,briefly reviewed what was discussed at the October 2 meeting with the Parks Commission. He explained that they have relocated the slalom ski course further to the north in 25 feet of water. The course is 850 feet long and will be located in a deeper part of the lake. This location allows for a more effective use of the lake by other people. This new location also results in minimum impact on fish and plant life. They are proposing that the course be placed in 25 feet of water and when it is not in use it will be at the bottom of the lake. Docter said it is proposed that the course would be used two or three hours a morning two or three times a week. The course would be funded and maintained by the Bryant Lake Ski Team. Docter further explained that the course would be open to the public for their use but they prefer that only team members operate the course. Docter presented a list of 22 lakes in the area that have ski courses and one of those lakes is in a Three-Rivers Conservation Park. Docter also presented a scaled picture of the proposed course. Bard Knudsen, 7120 Willow Creek Road, presented a brief history of water skiing and how it has evolved on Bryant Lake. He explained that Bryant Lake is well known for water skiing because it is long and narrow. There are high hills on the northeast and west sides of the lake which makes for calmer waters. Over the years there have been many ski courses located on this lake and they are trying to bring some new technology to the lake which will enable them to lower the ski course when not in use. Knudsen said they feel the proposed ski course is a great asset to the City and the lake community. It will not cost the City any money and will be supported by the ski team. He pointed out that the majority of homeowners on the lake support this request. John Barton, Water Resources Manager, Three Rivers Park District, explained that the Park District does believe that water skiing is a legitimate recreational activity and they do have courses on other lakes. However, they feel that this particular location does cause some problems for other lake users and they have expressed concerns with the location of the course because it may cause problems when people want to launch their boats. Barton said the Park District is an advocate for moving the ski course to a wider area of the lake where other users can bypass the course. They do foresee problems with the choke point turn around. They believe the turn around is close to vegetation beds and there is the potential of disturbing those beds. Barton said they believe that the new location is much improved over their original proposal but it does cause some recreational problems with boat launching and by precluding use of the north end of the bay. There is no room for other recreational activities to occur at that location. Docter explained that the course as now proposed would be about 500 feet from the boat landing. He indicated that locating the course in the middle of the lake PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 3 would be their secondary proposal. This proposal allows the rest of the lake to be open for other uses. Jacobus asked if the City could be held liable for anything should the City approve this proposal. Lambert said no, they would not be liable. Jacobus asked if the public is allowed to put up soccer nets or other types of things on park property. Lambert said they couldn't put up a permanent structure because it is public land. Jacobus questioned how they would be allowed to restrict the use of this course by stating that it has to be operated by a ski team member. Lambert explained that when the course is not being used it will not be up and will not be in the way for other lake users. When it is up and ski team members are present it can be used by anyone on the lake who has a water ski boat. Barrett asked what the practice schedule is for the Ski Team. Docter responded that there is no formal practice schedule. They generally start skiing after sun up and there can be two to five boats using the course. On a busy day they may have five or six boats out with 12 to 15 people. Mackay asked if the primary reason for relocating the course to the north side of the lake is to leave the lake open for other people including open skiers. Docter said by placing the course at the north end of the lake this allows for someone to ski in the south end and to spin around without creating waves on the course. Jacobus asked if a temporary or portable course could be put up at any time. Lambert responded that it could but it has to be taken down when they are done using it. Barton said it is his understanding that if any structure is beyond 150 feet from the shoreline it is an obstruction to navigation and a permit is required. Peter Plunkett, 306 21s' Street SW, Austin, said he is an attorney for the Minnesota Water Skiers Association and he has researched this very issue. There is a specific statute that does not require a permit for a temporary slalom course. Barton is correct about a navigational hazard and that a permit is required. The nature of the slalom course balls are not a hazard to navigation, therefore, a permit is not required. The proposed course is permanent and is better than a temporary one because it takes less time to raise and lower than it does to set up a temporary one. This results in less time being taken away from other users of the lake. A temporary course cannot go up before sunrise and must be taken down by sunset. A permitted course can stay out all night long. Plunkett said he feels this course is the best solution because no one has to worry about it. David Steen, 6741 Beach Road, explained that he lives on the west side of the lake and that he is a heavy user of the lake. He uses the lake for fishing and when he is out fishing at sunrise during the summer there are usually five or six ski boats out on the lake. Whether or not there is a ski course, water skiers will use the lake and there will be boats going back and forth. Steen also said that any concern for the boat launch is irrelevant and he feels the proposed location is the right location for the ski course. It should not be located in the middle of the lake. The proposed location will have the least affect on fishing. PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 4 Tom Lacki, 11527 Raspberry Hill Road, explained that he lives on the opposite side of Bryant Lake Park and that he is concerned with the maintenance of this ski course. He understands that the ski team is 100 percent responsible for the cost of installation but asked what happens when the equipment breaks. It has also been stated that there is some concern regarding the environmental impact. Lacki encouraged the Commission to get additional input on the environmental impact and make sure that is addressed. He said he also has concerns with the impact of public use. This is an important consideration. Many other users of this lake are from the general public and it appears that their use of the ski course would be limited. The use of the course is somewhat restrictive since it cannot be used unless someone from the ski team is operating it. This makes the course no longer public. Lacki expressed concern with the use of public property for a specific need for a small minority. He also expressed concern with setting a precedent and for the maintenance of this device. Lacki asked the Commission to consider requiring that a non-refundable escrow be established so that the City would be relieved of all financial burdens. He also suggested that they consider putting in writing the hours of operation that are agreeable to both parties. Dean Dahlen, 8901 Abbott Avenue South, Bloomington, explained that he does fish on this lake and also skis on it and it makes sense to place the ski course on the proposed end of the lake. John Olsen, 4100 West 62nd Street, Edina, said he has used Bryant Lake for water skiing since the late 1980's and they currently ski from end to end. He explained that the issue of the location of the course and concern for the boat landing is a non-issue. Either way they will be traveling past the landing whether it is on the course or free skiing. If there are more than two boats on the lake they will not be able to use the slalom course because of the waves. There have been concerns about other people using the course. It would be available to the public when it is up and they would welcome anyone to use it. However, if the ski team maintains it and is responsible for purchasing the supplies for the course it is not necessarily for public use when a ski team member is not present. Mackay asked if it is easy to remove the course once it is installed. Docter responded that it is moveable and if they find that there is an environmental impact they can move it. Moriarity asked if this course is installed, does the Three Rivers Park District have a way to monitor vegetation issues and complaints. Barton responded that if a permit is granted they would definitely monitor the impact of the course on recreational uses and vegetation. Their main concern is with the recreational impact and the proposed location of the course. Moriarity asked if the ski team were allowed to install the course for one year and it were determined that the course would have to be removed because of its environmental impact or for some other reason, would the ski team be willing to take that risk that it may have to be removed after one year. Docter said he personally would be willing to take that risk but that he would have to discuss this with the entire group. PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 5 Lambert explained that staff does have some concerns that if the group dissolves and this structure remains on the lake, who is responsible for removing it. They need some type of guarantee that someone will eventually remove this structure. Docter responded that they would be willing to put together some type of agreement with the appropriate entities indicating who would be liable for its removal. Barrett stated that one of the issues raised in a letter received by the City was whether or not there would be meets or tournaments using this course. Docter said they have no intention of using it for tournaments or meets. If the club does decide to do that a permit would be required. Barrett said that the letter also referred to a permanent structure of wood and PVC pipe that was installed by another homeowner on the lake. He asked if anyone was aware of this structure. Docter responded that it might have been constructed by some of the children for wake boarding. The person who installed it was not affiliated with the ski team. Barrett asked if there was a submersible slalom ski course on Bryant Lake within the last couple of years. Docter said that Jake Gibbs did have some type of structure. Barrett asked Gibbs to explain what he had constructed on the lake. Jake Gibbs, 6921 Beach Road, explained that he did have a permit for a permanent course on Bryant Lake and it was located on the larger bay. After having received a complaint from a fisherman regarding a water skier, the County asked that they no longer use the course. The course that he had installed is identical in size to the one being proposed this evening. The complaint was not about the ski course but about a water skier. Napuck said she was trying to understand the circumstances of the course that Gibbs had placed on the lake. She asked if it was a permanent course that did not submerge. Gibbs explained that in 1991 he had received a permit from the Hennepin County Sheriff for a slalom submersible ski course. Two years ago a complaint had been received about a skier using the course and the Sheriff asked that they discontinue using it. Napuck asked how they were able to obtain a permit without City permission. Lambert asked if the City denied the permit and the County approved it. Gibbs said that was correct. The course he had is the same as what they are discussing this evening and it was a submersible course. Lambert asked if that permit is still in effect. Gibbs said he has the permit and he doesn't have anything stating that they cannot use the ski course. Lambert then asked why the ski team just doesn't use Gibbs' permit? Docter pointed out that this evening the Bryant Lake Ski Team is requesting a permit for the north end of the lake. The dealings with Gibbs are separate from their request. Barrett said the situation regarding Gibbs' course is information the Commission should have had. Lambert said that this is a different group making the request. However, the City does not want to recommend approval of a course if one already exists on the lake and complaints have been received regarding that course. He questioned why they would approve a course when there were issues PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 6 with a previous course. Lambert said they also need to discuss the length of the permit. He suggested that they consider an annual permit. Lambert said if the Commission is inclined to approve this request, they need to have some caveats. He suggested that it be a year-to-year permit and that the Three Rivers Park District monitor its use. Also, there should be some conditions on the approval that if the City receives complaints from fishermen as to how the course is used, or Three Rivers have complaints about safety or see environmental damage, the permit may be revoked. Lambert said he would also suggest some guarantee as to who is going to remove the course if it is broken or no longer used. Lambert stated that if they move forward with this request they recommend to the County that these are the conditions and without these conditions the City would not recommend approval of a permit. Barrett said he would like to know whether or not the County Sheriff would agree with these conditions prior to his recommending approval of this request. He would also like to determine whether or not they could require that the permit be for one year only. Napuck said she agrees with Barrett and that additional information is needed prior to their acting on this request. They need to know the duration of the permit and the circumstances for revoking or extending a permit. She would like to know what the complaint was for the prior course and if that permit is no longer valid. Napuck said she would also like to know if one complaint may result in revocation of a permit. She indicated that she would like more information on what happened with the prior permit. Jacobus pointed out that this group could set up a course any time on any day. He said he was not sure that additional information would change his decision. Barrett said he would like to determine whether or not they could restrict the permit for one year. The Sheriff's office may offer a longer permit. Motion: Motion was made by Barrett, seconded by Mackay, to continue this item to the January 9 meeting and to direct staff to obtain additional information from the Hennepin County Sheriff's office. The motion carried, 5-0. V. OLD BUSINESS A. FINAL MASTER PLAN APPROVAL FOR TRAILS Lambert reported that the Commission is being asked to approve the final master plan for trails within Edenbrook Conservation Area, Riley Creek Conservation Area and the Lower Purgatory Creek Conservation Area. The master plan in final form is the same as the draft plan approved by the Parks Commission and the City Council earlier this year. Jacobus asked how much of this trail system involves purchasing or using eminent domain authority to go through private property. Lambert explained that the only property left to acquire is part of Lower Purgatory Creek and three to PARKS,RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES December 5, 2005 Page 7 four parcels along Riley Creek. Staff does not anticipate the need for eminent domain on any of the parcels at this time. Motion: Motion was made by Napuck, seconded by Jacobus, to recommend that the City Council approve the nature trail master plans for Edenbrook, Riley Creek and Lower Purgatory Creek Conservation Areas. The motion carried, 5-0. VII. REPORTS OF STAFF A. DIRECTOR OF PARKS AND RECREATION SERVICES B. MANAGER OF RECREATION SERVICES C. MANAGER OF PARKS AND NATURAL RESOURCES III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES —November 21, 2005 Moriarity asked that the words Mack be changed to MAC on Page 13 in the fourth paragraph. Motion: Moriarity moved, seconded by Mackay, to approve the minutes of November 21, 2005, as amended. The motion carried, 3-0-2 with Barrett and Jacobus abstaining because of absence from that meeting. VIII. NEXT MEETING The next meeting of the Commission is scheduled for Monday, January 9 at 7:00 p.m. in Heritage Rooms 3 and 4. IX. ADJOURNMENT Barrett asked for an update on the Cross Country Ski Team. Fox reported that the team has requested an extended trail. Fox said that based on this Commission's recommendation, Staff suggested that this not be something they pursue. The Ski Team would like to host a number of ski meets and the City has asked for more information from them regarding dates, size of teams, etc. and this information would then be brought to this Commission for consideration. Staff's recommendation would be that they hold the meets,but that they keep them on the approved course. Barrett thanked the Student Representatives for their participation in the meetings and indicated that they are some of the best representatives they have had on the Commission. Motion: Barrett moved, Mackay seconded, to adjourn the meeting. The motion carried 5-0. The meeting was adjourned at 8:50 p.m.